Pre-Build Planning - Septic and Grade

[fizznizzy]

This is my first post as a year long + lurker/researcher. I'm at the point where I've saved and done enough research to start a build of my own pole barn, but I have a few questions I haven't been able to readily find answers to. I'm limited to a 30X40 based on city limits (max size has to be less than the footprint of the house). Hopefully someone can give some suggestions or advice on where to look.

First roadblock I'm coming to is locating the septic system to build far enough away from it. Couple of notes on what I've found so far with city records:
-Septic system built in 1969
-Entails 2 tanks (one of which has an access port) and 2 dry wells
-Location is very poorly defined other than the distance to the access port (closest to home)
-Local septic companies don't 'locate' any features

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to locate the dry wells besides digging holes in my yard where I think they might be? There are no visible changes in how the grass grows, snow melting, or anything beyond the concrete cap of the 1st tank. I need to know how far back this goes so I can avoid building too close and get the permit approved showing that.

Second roadblock is prepping the land once permits are pulled. Mostly just looking for validation on my thought process for order of operations and some general questions in between:
1. Stake out site and get city inspection
2. Remove all grass from the space
3. Start the fill dirt/leveling process - how high should the dirt at the high end of the grade be above the existing grass? Is fill dirt alone acceptable for this?
4. Dig post holes, get inspection, and move on to the framing process from there
5. Concrete after framing? or before? I may bring in some local Amish for the framing and site prep. From what I have seen they usually build without any concrete in place then have the slab poured by a separate contractor. Any reason to go one way or another?

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[kd3pc]

septic for house/home or for new garage?

If for garage, you will likely need the health dept or zoning to approve a "second system" which may or may not be allowed, depending on soil, area available and so on. VA (you did not put a location in) and TN require a second site, in case the first fills or fails. No exceptions...so id you already have one system....

Second, you need to have the folks who approve and permit septic systems to meet you on site and they will tell you where you can build based on the needs of the existing system and the possibles for the new system.

As to location, you need to get a guy who pumps tanks for a living to come pump your system, and he will have a thin steel probe to locate things. In the absence of that you can hire a plumber to locate it with electronic tools, not inexpensive - but is quite accurate.

If you decide to probe, use a blunt probe and be careful, as some older systems use short clay pipe and it can easily be holed or cracked. Old fashioned shovel still works.

More details and location will help others who may have first hand experience with your state/city/town.

 

[white91formula]

septic for house/home or for new garage?

If for garage, you will likely need the health dept or zoning to approve a "second system" which may or may not be allowed, depending on soil, area available and so on. VA (you did not put a location in) and TN require a second site, in case the first fills or fails. No exceptions...so id you already have one system....

Second, you need to have the folks who approve and permit septic systems to meet you on site and they will tell you where you can build based on the needs of the existing system and the possibles for the new system.

As to location, you need to get a guy who pumps tanks for a living to come pump your system, and he will have a thin steel probe to locate things. In the absence of that you can hire a plumber to locate it with electronic tools, not inexpensive - but is quite accurate.

If you decide to probe, use a blunt probe and be careful, as some older systems use short clay pipe and it can easily be holed or cracked. Old fashioned shovel still works.

More details and location will help others who may have first hand experience with your state/city/town.

He isn't trying to add a septic. He is trying to find out where the existing septic for his house is on his property so he can build his barn the appropriate distance from it

 

[fizznizzy]

Let me clarify - I'm just trying to figure out where the tanks/leach fields are so I can ensure the plan for the building is far enough away from them.

Maybe I need to ask a few more septic pumping companies in the area... I was told flat out 'we can't locate any of the system for you' by two so far. I'll also give the health department a call and see what I can manage.

Hopefully there aren't any clay components... I'm sure a shovel would go through just as easily.

Location is in NE Ohio.

 

[mcbane]

Run a long snake down the main sewer line and attach a radio locator (you can rent one) transmitter to the snake. From that you can trace to the septic tank. Once you dig up the tank you can repeat the process, starting the snake at the tank outlet, to find your junction box. And from the junction box you can trace the leach lines.


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[TommyK]

Ground penetrating radar.

 

[yeldogt]

So you have never had it pumped?

Have always used a septic company to do all the locations. Call one and tell them you need a pump -- want it inspected and figure out were things are.

It's not free ... you are going to have got have it pinpointed. For both township and -- trust me you don't want to be wrong

 

[kbs2244]

You may not have a leach field.
But 1969 is late enough that the local health department should have a lot layout.

Just an FYI.
Pole building holes do not disturb leach line very much.

 

[fizznizzy]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I'll be looking into those options shortly.

So you have never had it pumped?

Have always used a septic company to do all the locations. Call one and tell them you need a pump -- want it inspected and figure out were things are.

It's not free ... you are going to have got have it pinpointed. For both township and -- trust me you don't want to be wrong

I moved into the house about 3 years ago (suggested time to pump with single occupant) so I'm getting ready to do that now. Looks like I need to call a few more companies before taking things into my own hands.

You may not have a leach field.
But 1969 is late enough that the local health department should have a lot layout.

Just an FYI.
Pole building holes do not disturb leach line very much.

The health department has a layout (from 1969), but it's extremely vague. There are actually two different diagrams on file - I'm guessing the one dated 3 months later after the initial permit was pulled is more accurate, but still not very helpful.

 

[CraigStu]

Yep same thing for mine at the county office. Two versions. I think like you, one to get the initial permit, and another done by the guy who actually built the system. I know this seems old school but it worked for me once 30 years ago. Devining or dowsing rods.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079757WYT/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Google for more info.

 

[HoosierMark]

If your septic is like my son's you have the two tanks and then a perforated line running to a dry well then on to a second drywell then out to daylight. Not totally sure how it works but in the suburb of Cincinnati they come and inspect it once a year. You should be able to use a probe to find the line. There is no septic field like I think of as a normal septic just the lines connecting the tanks and the pits.

 

[ManOnTheCouch]

As mentioned above, use a probe to define the edges of the tanks and where the lines enter and exit. Do it when the ground is soft to make it a bit easier. I don't know what the best thing to use for a probe would be, but a long, thin, metal rod would do the trick.

There's also this

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KOMTJ6U/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[larry4406]

Try Google Earth on your address. At the top of its screen, there is a tool bar that lets you go back in time for different satellite flyovers. There is a chance you can see the parallel lines in the earth as the nutrients from the effluent enhance grass growth.

I have done this many times when vetting lots/homes for purchase with the intent of planning a future shop. My current home was selected this way and the Google Earth image matches what the health department had on file.

Don't forget your stay away distance to the well if you have one.

 

[bad_idea]

I had a septic system inspection performed when I bought my house. I called a local septic system company - they do installs, inspections, repairs, and pumping. Nice old guy. I walked with him while he did the inspection. Mine was fairly easy as you could see the area where the tank top was - the grass doesn't grow as well because the tank top is only 6" or so down. He had a fairly simple tool for probing the ground - a piece of 1" pipe 12" long (handle) welded to the top of a piece of 1/2" round stock with a point on the end. He just walked the yard pushing the probe in. You can tell you found the leech lines because you should hit gravel a few inches down.

I have since fashioned my own probing tool and use it to mark the location of septic when working around it. If your building is anywhere near the system I recommend you put posts around the septic with caution tape strung up. Keep the builders from damaging your septic. My concrete guy was appreciative that I did mark it - removed possibility of error.

As far as getting the permit to build the garage. I took a sketch of the property (had a survey done, made a copy and sketched the septic on it) with the garage location and septic system location to the Health Department and they gave me a letter stating I was far enough away with the building. I then took that document to the Building Department when filing for my permit.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Use google/aerial photos to get a good idea. Buy a probe (they are not expensive). Start where the drain exits the house measure straight out to the tank.
Use the probe to locate the tank(s) and the edges. Then locate the field from there.

 

[fizznizzy]

Thanks for all the suggestions! The feedback here is better than I expected. I'll start with a probe of my own once the weather turns around a bit and the ground is soft enough. In the meantime, it sounds like I'll need to have the lot surveyed anyway.

I like the google earth idea, but unfortunately most of the images have tree branches covering or casting shadows over the septic area (not so great for root intrusion).

 

[NoPressure]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I'll be looking into those options shortly.



I moved into the house about 3 years ago (suggested time to pump with single occupant) so I'm getting ready to do that now. Looks like I need to call a few more companies before taking things into my own hands.



The health department has a layout (from 1969), but it's extremely vague. There are actually two different diagrams on file - I'm guessing the one dated 3 months later after the initial permit was pulled is more accurate, but still not very helpful.

jealous of the detail on that layout. mine is literally an H next to a rectangle (the house). no measurements, no reference points nothing. and its from 1980

 

[bad_idea]

Mine was a crudely drawn sketch. Then they changed the plan and put it in a different spot of the yard. Way off.