Press and Brake Build

[jeepinerdeep]

So I "found" a scrap yard, and grabbed some tubing.....this will be at least another month to finish. The scrap yard I never knew about, and it was awesome.

The plan is to build a press and a then a brake attachment. I settled on 12 ton after running some numbers on force required, knowing my press would take 20, if I want to change later- the bottle jacks are the same height. I picked up the HF 12 ton air over hydraulic the other day with a coupon for about 70 bucks.

My expectations are to brake 14ga to 12 inches, 11ga at 8 and 7 ga at 4. I also want to run dimple dies to 2in in 18 and 14 ga material. I'm going to build out my brake using gooseneck dies from SWAG, but the rest of his brake doesn't fit what I'm going for. Additional uses in my world would likely be bushings and bearings in the Jeep realm.

I'm very aware I could have bought the HF 20 ton press cheaper. That's not important.

I am working from the top down, and will trim the legs when I get everything settled at a 36in bed height including my not yet delivered casters.

Here's a cope and tabs for the arch for the top. This will give me 14 inches of weld in shear on each side.




All material except the punch stock cut and ground.




This project is kind of fun, a throwback to fabbing with what's available since I didn't really plan it out in detail, just in my head.

 

[airrj]

You should just buy a HF 20 ton.

Sorry, I just had to. Remember, you brought it up first.

Nice looking start. Isn't it relaxing fabing stuff from steel. I look forward to the rest of your build.

 

[skipnay]

Good luck with the brake, press, and so on from another south central PA member. I will be following for sure.

 

[Kevin54]

Looking forward to seeing the build

 

[DougWil]

I'm very aware I could have bought the HF 20 ton press cheaper. That's not important.

Going to miss out on the frustration of putting a big kink in your press with an attitude like that!


If you got those rems at a good price, and with tube steel having a much higher yield strength than chinese structural you probably will be very close to HF per lb cost.

 

[darwyn]

I'm very aware I could have bought the HF 20 ton press cheaper. That's not important.

My dad has one of those cheap chinese presses, or had I should say. The frame cracked on it. With the cheap metal they used it wasn't worth trying to weld. You will be well served by yours!

 

[8man]

Looking forward to seeing it come together.

 

[ewils35]

I'm following this build

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk

 

[4 FN 27]

Subscribed.

14 ga using 1/16 R punch and 3/8 bottom will require 9.3 tons to air bend it. Your minimum flange length will be about 9/32 without staggering the tooling.

26 ga will require 5.4 tons @ 12 inches and 18 ga about 3.1 tons @ 12 inches.

Tonage will go down the smaller the punch radii or the bigger the die opening. The trade off on bigger die opening is the longer your minimum flange length has to be.

The bottom die width is typically 5 x material thickness and the minimum flange length is typically 2.5 x material thickness. There are creative ways around this like offsetting tooling and striking the part twice.

When I get to work tomorrow I'll see if I can post some pictures showing a few of these formulas and techniques. Been fabricating precision sheet metal for 32 years. I found all these rules are to be broken otherwise we would not have progress and do what was once impossible.

 

[gibbon_guy]

Subscribed

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Subscribed.

14 ga using 1/16 R punch and 3/8 bottom will require 9.3 tons to air bend it. Your minimum flange length will be about 9/32 without staggering the tooling.

26 ga will require 5.4 tons @ 12 inches and 18 ga about 3.1 tons @ 12 inches.

Tonage will go down the smaller the punch radii or the bigger the die opening. The trade off on bigger die opening is the longer your minimum flange length has to be.

The bottom die width is typically 5 x material thickness and the minimum flange length is typically 2.5 x material thickness. There are creative ways around this like offsetting tooling and striking the part twice.

When I get to work tomorrow I'll see if I can post some pictures showing a few of these formulas and techniques. Been fabricating precision sheet metal for 32 years. I found all these rules are to be broken otherwise we would not have progress and do what was once impossible.

Wow thanks. you are certainly the expert. I saw your cabinet thread. I've never really done it before. I was going off a chart I found. I was planning on making a 2 sided bottom die with a 3/4 opening for up to 14ga and a 1 1/2 opening for 11 and 7 ga. Maybe I'm crazy or would that do OK for me?

 

[4 FN 27]

Wow thanks. you are certainly the expert. I saw your cabinet thread. I've never really done it before. I was going off a chart I found. I was planning on making a 2 sided bottom die with a 3/4 opening for up to 14ga and a 1 1/2 opening for 11 and 7 ga. Maybe I'm crazy or would that do OK for me?

Your not crazy...your becoming a fabricator...a dying bread in America.

Best thing for tooling is watch the auctions in your area or check out Craigslist. Buy some either American Style or European Style tooling and adapt it to your machine. Doesn't matter how long it is you can cut it to the length you want on a plain old band saw (it is not the easiest on blades though). Typically only the tips and edges are flame hardened. And if you do cut it and have access to a mill you can square up the ends and mix and match various lengths so you can make Boxes and more complex parts. You will also have to make a holder for the Punch and Die that holds all your punches/dies in line.

Here is a trick little part we formed up today as a prototype with an order coming right behind it. This was all done in the same Press Brake using precision ground American Tooling.

This is the Machine it was run in.

Here is a picture of our latest and greatest. Bought 4 of these back in February. We can take a solid model and program the machine offline using the model after a little tweaking. The Screen is animated showing the operator where to put the tooling (from our dedicated tooling library) and how to hold the part in the machine. These are the future of our Brake department based on the lack of skill coming out of the schools.

Now here is the educational part...I can explain more if needed just ask. These are taken from a series of things I have done over the years to educate our customers on forming. Pretty basic stuff but it should help you make parts right the first time.

Time to head home. My Wife says dinner is ready!!!

 

[vonhef]

Interesting topic to me.... Subscribed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Your not crazy...your becoming a fabricator...a dying bread in America.

Best thing for tooling is watch the auctions in your area or check out Craigslist. Buy some either American Style or European Style tooling and adapt it to your machine. Doesn't matter how long it is you can cut it to the length you want on a plain old band saw (it is not the easiest on blades though). Typically only the tips and edges are flame hardened. And if you do cut it and have access to a mill you can square up the ends and mix and match various lengths so you can make Boxes and more complex parts. You will also have to make a holder for the Punch and Die that holds all your punches/dies in line.

Here is a trick little part we formed up today as a prototype with an order coming right behind it. This was all done in the same Press Brake using precision ground American Tooling.



This is the Machine it was run in.



Here is a picture of our latest and greatest. Bought 4 of these back in February. We can take a solid model and program the machine offline using the model after a little tweaking. The Screen is animated showing the operator where to put the tooling (from our dedicated tooling library) and how to hold the part in the machine. These are the future of our Brake department based on the lack of skill coming out of the schools.



Now here is the educational part...I can explain more if needed just ask. These are taken from a series of things I have done over the years to educate our customers on forming. Pretty basic stuff but it should help you make parts right the first time.

Time to head home. My Wife says dinner is ready!!!

Holy rip.....that's a monster ! Did I mention this thing is only 12 inches wide at the punch?? HAHA. Thanks for the info. I will be reading and trying to learn...especially the bend allowances. That's generous of you to share.

I am looking a punches now, but I think I'll have my buddy mill a die for budgetary reasons.

I gotta get this press done first ! I'm looking forward to making the brake attachment more.

 

[brittf]

4 FN 27, thank you for the information you posted on bending. I purchased a 20 ton press along with the 20 Ton Finger Brake Heavy Duty DIY Build Kit from Swag Offload. Because I wanted more control over the die opening I also purchased the Flat Top Adjustable Bottom V Die for the 20 Ton Press Brake DIY Builder Kit. Since I now had the tools I needed to know the correct way to use them. The Internet came to the rescue.

I found several on-line articles on thefabricator.com website. The first was Finding the Perfect Die Opening. In this article, it states the "Geometrically perfect die opening = (outside radius x 0.7071) x 4." They then adjust this number for springback. For material thickness less than 0.125 inches, the factor is 4.85; for a material thickness between 0.125 and 0.250 inches, the factor is recommended at 5.85.

The second article, Bending Basics: How the Inside Bend Radius Forms, takes a different approach. In this article, they state the desired inside radius as a percentage of the die opening. For mild steel they indicate the percentage ranges from 15 to 17 percent and suggest starting with 16 percent. So, to determine the die opening necessary to accomplish a desired inside radius you would divide the inside radius by 0.16 for mild steel. I used this approach to determine my die opening to bend 3/16 inch mild steel to a one thickness inside radius and it seem to work fine.


Britt

 

[4 FN 27]

4 FN 27, thank you for the information you posted on bending. I purchased a 20 ton press along with the 20 Ton Finger Brake Heavy Duty DIY Build Kit from Swag Offload. Because I wanted more control over the die opening I also purchased the Flat Top Adjustable Bottom V Die for the 20 Ton Press Brake DIY Builder Kit. Since I now had the tools I needed to know the correct way to use them. The Internet came to the rescue.

I found several on-line articles on thefabricator.com website. The first was Finding the Perfect Die Opening. In this article, it states the "Geometrically perfect die opening = (outside radius x 0.7071) x 4." They then adjust this number for springback. For material thickness less than 0.125 inches, the factor is 4.85; for a material thickness between 0.125 and 0.250 inches, the factor is recommended at 5.85.

The second article, Bending Basics: How the Inside Bend Radius Forms, takes a different approach. In this article, they state the desired inside radius as a percentage of the die opening. For mild steel they indicate the percentage ranges from 15 to 17 percent and suggest starting with 16 percent. So, to determine the die opening necessary to accomplish a desired inside radius you would divide the inside radius by 0.16 for mild steel. I used this approach to determine my die opening to bend 3/16 inch mild steel to a one thickness inside radius and it seem to work fine.


Britt

Yep all that is true for Coin or Bottom Bending. We have been "Air Bending" since the 60's making tooling last longer and machine last even longer.

But in the world we live in, we live and die based on Set-up time. So the quick rule of thumb of 5 x T works fast to get you close. However more important is getting the stretch out (flat blank size) perfect to begin with. The closer we are here allows you a few liberties on the die opening and punch radius. And 98% of the time we are using .031 ISR punches no matter the thickness unless it is 6061 or 7075 and other brittle materials.

So technically we never have the faces of the punch or the faces of the die touch the surface of the material unlike Bottom or coining. There are 3 points that touch: The punch tip and the 2 tangent points of the die where the inner faces of the intersect with the top flat of the die. Thus less tonnage and less wear. We are also able to hold angles much closer because we are not depending so much on the material thickness to be consistent...and this is a catch 22 when you think about it. When Coining you actually displace material causing it to go to a given thickness which can give you a better angle but the die opening has to be perfect and standard tooling only comes in certain openings.

Back to the .031 ISR Air Bend...on thinner materials it will be close to a true .031 ISR but on 3/16 or 1/4 it will be closer to .062 ISR because we are not coining.

Best practice is log your forming information based on ISR, Material Thickness, Bend Allowance, Length of bend...expectation and result.

Here is a part "Air Formed". The Holes are put in the flat and after forming we need to hold +/-.010 between centers. Tis was done all in 1 machine, 1 set of tools and one very highly skilled operator.

 

[nine4gmc]

Major good info here, thanks for sharing, I will be paying attention!

 

[SM Racing]

What a timely thread, I am in the process of Press brake Version 2.0. Version 1 worked but failed under a large bend in 3/16s. Version 2 will have an interchangeable lower die to accommodate different thickness materials. I'll spend some time with this thread learning more about forming.

When you say air bending you mean just normal bending into a V die?

 

[4 FN 27]

What a timely thread, I am in the process of Press brake Version 2.0. Version 1 worked but failed under a large bend in 3/16s. Version 2 will have an interchangeable lower die to accommodate different thickness materials. I'll spend some time with this thread learning more about forming.

When you say air bending you mean just normal bending into a V die?

Yes. Air Bending is bringing the die down on the material pushing it through the V-die until it reaches 90°.

In coining and bottom forming you do the same thing only you push the material down into the bottom with such force it goes slightly over 90° and then the faces of the Punch and Die open it back up to 90° with extreme pressure.

We also call this set angle forming. I do this when I built custom for tooling where we are contouring a form like and "S Curve" or a larger Radius like on the side of a full windage kick out oil pan. Or the curl to radii transition shown in this picture (wish I had an end view):

 

[4 FN 27]

I forgot to mention this...I hate the word Bending.

You bend Tubing.

You form Sheet Metal.

Even thou I use the word bend I still don't like it applied to Sheet Metal...LOL...

Any questions you have I am more than willing to answer if I can. We have 27 Press Brakes ranging from 4 footers pushing 60 tons to 14 footers pushing 220 tons running 18+ hours a day and they are hungry and eat metal non-stop...

 

[Cypherian]

I forgot to mention this...I hate the word Bending.

You bend Tubing.

You form Sheet Metal.

Even thou I use the word bend I still don't like it applied to Sheet Metal...LOL...

Any questions you have I am more than willing to answer if I can. We have 27 Press Brakes ranging from 4 footers pushing 60 tons to 14 footers pushing 220 tons running 18+ hours a day and they are hungry and eat metal non-stop...

Soo.... The guys who created the " Bend Allowance Formula " etc were wrong in their naming convention ? :}
Bend Allowance = Angle * (PI / 180) * (Radius + K-factor * Thickness)

Bend Compensation = Bend Allowance – (2 * Set Back)

Inside Set Back = tan (Angle / 2) * Radius

Outside Set Back = tan (Angle / 2) * (Radius + Thickness)

Now consider I started learning metal work on one of these :



No not this exact one that one is long in the scrap bin most likely though, a local shop here has one I was shocked when I saw It out back and according to the owner he uses it still.

Using One of These:



Nope this is a picture of one but I do have mine out in my tool box along with my radius gauges and thickness gauges etc etc :}

Just messing around with you. When I went to school it was metal fabrication we learned welding ,gas soldering irons etc all the way up to and through precision lay out . And I have done it from HVAC sheet metal work all the way to Aircraft metal work with stops along the way building roach coaches , R&D fabrication etc. The new stuff done today with cad and equipment that did not exist then is amazing but lol it is still BENDING METAL :}

Cypher

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Back to the project at hand, sort of.....

Had to take a little time to hang my new used Coffing electric hoist. Freaking loving it. I also got a second identical Dayton for downstairs. CL scores.



On a all the presses I've seen, there is a solid bar for the punch. I bored out this 2" bar and set a high pull mounting magnet in there. I plan to use this set of punches instead of stacking sockets and whatnot.






Also notched out this little machine handle for the release on my bottle jack.





Casters should be here tomorrow and I'll be working on the press tomm. afternoon and all of Saturday, so I expect some progress.

 

[shortykorte]

I forgot to mention this...I hate the word Bending.

You bend Tubing.

You form Sheet Metal.

Even thou I use the word bend I still don't like it applied to Sheet Metal...LOL...

Any questions you have I am more than willing to answer if I can. We have 27 Press Brakes ranging from 4 footers pushing 60 tons to 14 footers pushing 220 tons running 18+ hours a day and they are hungry and eat metal non-stop...

Watching a video by Lazze, he said you can bend, stretch, shrink, or cut sheet metal. So any metal forming will consist of one or more these 4 processes. (Yes it can be joined, but I think he is referring to shaping a single piece of stock). Comment is at 50 seconds into video.

Got to love those brakes. More Power!!! Is this an invitation for GJ members to send you our pieces to be "bent"

 

[shortykorte]

Back to the project at hand, sort of.....

Had to take a little time to hang my new used Coffing electric hoist. Freaking loving it. I also got a second identical Dayton for downstairs. CL scores.

On a all the presses I've seen, there is a solid bar for the punch. I bored out this 2" bar and set a high pull mounting magnet in there. I plan to use this set of punches instead of stacking sockets and whatnot.


Also notched out this little machine handle for the release on my bottle jack.





Casters should be here tomorrow and I'll be working on the press tomm. afternoon and all of Saturday, so I expect some progress.

Just sent this picture to a friend so he can turn me a handle like this. Thanks!!!

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Just sent this picture to a friend so he can turn me a handle like this. Thanks!!!

You can get blanks on McMaster Carr for less than 10 bucks and drill and notch it out. Search PN 6049K17. I did it with a drill press, band saw and a file.

 

[Techie1961]

Watching a video by Lazze, he said you can bend, stretch, shrink, or cut sheet metal. So any metal forming will consist of one or more these 4 processes. (Yes it can be joined, but I think he is referring to shaping a single piece of stock). Comment is at 50 seconds into video.

Got to love those brakes. More Power!!! Is this an invitation for GJ members to send you our pieces to be "bent"

Well to get technical, you can only stretch, shrink, and cut steel and other metals. Bending is a combination of shrinking on one side and stretching on the other. Any other actions like tearing or burning are destructive but cutting is also tearing to some degree. If you over-stretch metal, it tears obviously.

 

[shortykorte]

You can get blanks on McMaster Carr for less than 10 bucks and drill and notch it out. Search PN 6049K17. I did it with a drill press, band saw and a file.

Thanks. I've been wanting to order from the so I'll this to the list.

 

[4 FN 27]

Just messing around with you. When I went to school it was metal fabrication we learned welding ,gas soldering irons etc all the way up to and through precision lay out . And I have done it from HVAC sheet metal work all the way to Aircraft metal work with stops along the way building roach coaches , R&D fabrication etc. The new stuff done today with cad and equipment that did not exist then is amazing but lol it is still BENDING METAL :}

Cypher

LOL...my terminology might be a bit off and over explained. Never went to school for Sheet Metal. Started at 16 learning from a 76 year old guy who installed duct work in Navy Ships before and during WWI. He gave ma Sheet Metal pattern Makers book from 1941 and I was off and running. Over the years I learn from some old craftsman as I moved up the ranks now owning our own shop.

Jeepindeep it is looking good. Can't wait to see the finished product.

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Got some of the welding in. Need to trim the legs to length in the morning and weld the legs/feet on.



And most of the drilling. Arm is tired.



Hoping to be close to done with the press part by Sat night. We shall see. Still collecting pieces and refining my design on the brake attachment.

 

[4 FN 27]

Nice welder in the background. I have the same one at home.

Project is looking good.

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Nice welder in the background. I have the same one at home.

Project is looking good.

Thanks. It isn't fancy, and that's what I like about it. Actual voltage and wire speed on the dials, not the this 1-8 and ****.

 

[Provincial]

I like everything in the background. Good taste in tools!

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Made some progress this afternoon. I've got about 4 inches of weld and to run the flap wheel over the follower bar before I can rattle can this and assemble. I need to weld the spring bracket that came with the jack to the upper crossmember for 2 reasons- to attach the spring so the follower/jack retract and also the hole in the bracket will make a decent pocket for the tip of the jacks ram.

Finished drilling 25/32" 24 times. What a beast of a twist drill to run. I ran a 5/8 rotabroach and then twist drill, that seemed to be the best combination.



Trimmed to optimum height for my stumpy figure. Attached feet and stands under its own power.



Finished off the bed parts.



And worked on the follower.



Where I left it till I can round up my pop tomorrow to give me a hand squaring the jack up in there to weld the aforementioned spring bracket in.

 

[1969]

Looking good!

 

[4 FN 27]

Looks great!!!

 

[skipnay]

I need to make one of those handles for my bottle jack.

 

[Mike.ASC]

Nice work. What size & wall thickness rectangular tubing are you using?

 

[jeepinerdeep]

Nice work. What size & wall thickness rectangular tubing are you using?

3x4x3/16

 

[Duker]

Looking good!

Nice call on the air/hydraulic jack as it makes the job so much faster/easier when doing repetitive bending.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What kind of accuracy can a DIYer expect out of bench top brake on "light" sheet metal ?

I want to make a 3 sided "box" (no front, no bottom, no back). All of the front edges can be raw (deburred and filed) but the sides need to have an extra 1/2" flange/tab folded 90° toward what would be the bottom. Same thing with the top back.

It's a zero clearance housing for a BluRay disk player, like this.