bigredmf
Well-known member
Bad news mine are .35
Pressure Switch and Regulations
- Thread starter BigWil
- Start date
You have your answer then. Do it yourself. While you are at it, order an ignitor and a flame rod.
ripperd
Well-known member
I'm the same way. Latest project is remodeling the master bathroom. I bit off a big project with this one. I bet this job would be well over $1000 labor, probably closer to $2000 labor when all is done. And I'm a very particular person about finishing touches, so I don't mind doing the work. The pro's can probably do it at least 2-3x as fast as I can. Luckily we have a 3/4 bath on the lower level so as long as the vanity, mirror, and toilet are in place most nights the wife is happy we will have a nice bathroom soon.
Honestly I have no problem paying for services when needed. But I just try to be self sufficient most of the time.
Ignitors and flame rods are outside of my comfort zone...I would pay for a tech to replace those.
sourdough
Well-known member
My problem with swelled-head contractors is that they think that whatever HVAC problem from a prospective client has, and the client has a good perspective of the problem, the contractor just disses it because of "I know better".
Referring to Wil's situation, if one has a good schematic and is able to read it, and has a good multi-meter, all problems are solved. I understand that a combustion air switch may not make due to a few anomalies (blocked stack, bad fan, blocked tubes etc.) The reference to having a "tech" check the pressure difference via a manometer is laughable at best as a normal check. The tech probably has no idea what the furnace combustion air switch is rated for and cannot really verify it as truly good. One can do that with the combustion air fan with proper documentation, but good luck with that.
I will still personally diagnose my furnace problems and still have heat while not adding to a contractor's income at my expense. I know that I have most all spare parts at considerable cost but they are there when needed.
Good luck Wil.
tdkkart
Well-known member
In the OP's case, if you called 10 techs out to look at the furnace, they'd all look at the controller flashing the 3 code, look at the label that shows "3-flashes = combustion air switch", 5 of them would run straight to the truck and get a new switch, 2 of them would run to the truck for a new fan, and the other 2 would run it through it's cycle to see what it actually did before flashing the code, only then would they run to the truck for a switch.
I'll bet not one single one of them would touch it with any sort of test equipment.
I'll bet not one single one of them would touch it with any sort of test equipment.
If I have the switch on the truck, I absolutely will change it out and see what happens. The problem is there are so many different switches now. A lot of these newer condensing furnaces have 2 piggy backed switches of various ratings that are 1 unit. In those cases I'm not going to have the switch which means I'm going to be investing an hour to get it.
I have a magnahelic with a tee and some tube and I tee it right in with the switch and make sure it is in fact the switch before I waste an hour.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Id pull it off and bang it on the ground to see if that would unstick it after ohming it out with my meter first.
If that did it then Id tell him the options for a permanent fix.
If that did it then Id tell him the options for a permanent fix.
Thanks to the generosity of a forum member, I have a new switch on the way.
The member reached out to me by PM, and dropped a new one in the mail. It's truly appreciated. He also restored my faith in humanity, by refusing any cash for it. We have some truly exceptional people on this forum.
If any techs that are looking at this thread are offended, it was not my intention. I was just venting that the local regulations prevented me from buying a pressure switch from a local contractor. I respect all trained professionals in all fields, and have no problem with calling in any professional for a problem I cannot deal with. Please accept my apologies. I only call people in when I absolutely have to, as I'm just a little paranoid. You never know who is going to show up, and I've made a few enemies as a police officer. I also store some of my firearms in a safe near the furnace, and would rather not have to move or hide it when someone comes in.
If replacing the switch doesn't resolve it, then I will call someone in. I'm certain I won't need to call anyone, but only time will tell.
The member reached out to me by PM, and dropped a new one in the mail. It's truly appreciated. He also restored my faith in humanity, by refusing any cash for it. We have some truly exceptional people on this forum.
If any techs that are looking at this thread are offended, it was not my intention. I was just venting that the local regulations prevented me from buying a pressure switch from a local contractor. I respect all trained professionals in all fields, and have no problem with calling in any professional for a problem I cannot deal with. Please accept my apologies. I only call people in when I absolutely have to, as I'm just a little paranoid. You never know who is going to show up, and I've made a few enemies as a police officer. I also store some of my firearms in a safe near the furnace, and would rather not have to move or hide it when someone comes in.
If replacing the switch doesn't resolve it, then I will call someone in. I'm certain I won't need to call anyone, but only time will tell.
Suggestion, ask around and find a trusted company and have them do a yearly maintenance, you may be able to avoid having to deal with no heat issues if everything is checked out preseason. Ask fellow officers, friends etc for recommendations and see if one name keeps coming up. If you have a good relationship with a company you will have a better chance of buying parts over the counter if needed.
I work in everything from singlewide trailers to multimillion houses and I could care less what people have in their houses, guns, drugs whatever I'm just there to fix or replace their equipment.
The only good guy that's been recommended doesn't service Coleman furnaces. He's a one guy operation. The other small shop in the area has a bad reputation. The big guys don't care about one customer here and there.
fury9
Well-known member
I had a brand new Goodman installed (wouldn't recommend)in the last house, Let's just say I always kept two new ones on hand.
sms1974
Well-known member
Your problem with swell headed contractors???
You sir have are the reason we " swell headed contractors " all laugh at the guys that think they know and can fix everything... You have no clue what your talking about but feel you should tell us all that were all wrong. Here's a little information for you. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but yes any good well trained tech is going to break out there manometer and check the pressure shown at the switch. An electric meter is only going to tell you the switch has not closed, not why it didn't...
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
If the switch is stuck closed when the power is off,my meter tells me everything I need to know.
If the furnace stays running if I remove flue pipe,it tells me the flue is plugged by something.
Furnaces are a whole lot easier to troubleshoot than they were 30 plus years ago.
sms1974
Well-known member
If the switch is stuck closed when the power is off,my meter tells me everything I need to know.
If the furnace stays running if I remove flue pipe,it tells me the flue is plugged by something.
Furnaces are a whole lot easier to troubleshoot than they were 30 plus years ago.
There's no use in me discusing this any more...
What's the saying "never argue with an idiot they will drag you down to there level and beat you with experience"
I give up go ahead and fix it your way it's not my family you will kill...
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
How many years have you been working on furnaces and boilers?Thers more than one way to test a damn vacuam operated switch,its just a freaking rubber diaphragm inside that closes a switch.
Get over yourself already.
Get over yourself already.
sms1974
Well-known member
How many years have you been working on furnaces and boilers?Thers more than one way to test a damn vacuam operated switch,its just a freaking rubber diaphragm inside that closes a switch.
Get over yourself already.
25 plus years... You have no clue at all... The entire discussion in this thread has revolved around safety. Yep if you **** on the hose you can make the switch close, does that mean it's a good switch??? NO!!!
The furnace was designed and engineered by someone a hell of a lot smarter than you. They also specified and selected a switch that is closed or opened at a specific pressure or negative pressure... I'm sorry to burst your bubble but YES the only way to test that a switch is good or bad is to either 1. Verify the pressure applied to it is within the specified range or 2. Apply the specified pressure to the switch and prove it closes or opens...
I don't know what is so hard to understand about these things... It's not a matter or can I make it work it's a matter of is it safe... These switches are used to prove 2 things, that the exhaust vent is clear and that heat exchanger is not compromised, ie cracked or rusted out... So go ahead and **** on the hose and say yup it's good and when the furnace doesn't close it maybe you can find a switch that requires less vacume to close to replace it with never mind your heat exchanger is leaking carbon monoxide in to your house while you stand there patting yourself on the back...
I'm not worried about a cracked heat exchanger...the CO alarms are all reading 0 in the house, as is the gas alarm next to the furnace, where all the gas lines in the house run.
So, the furnace started acting up again. Beating on the pressure switch made it work properly. At this point, regardless is anything else is wrong, that switch absolutely has to be replaced.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Well it sounds like Ive got a few years on you there experience wise sunshine,Like I said before get over yourself.
As far as rusted out heat exchangers Id be willing to bet Ive checked/serviced as many furnaces as you,and Ive warranteed out more heat exchangers and replaced more cracked hot water and steam boiler sections then you could ever imagine .
Anytime you want to go head to head fixing a furnace or a boiler(hot water or steam),Res-Comm-Ind plumbing/steam fitting,Res-comm-Indust wiring or anything else you just let me know,Im right here in the southeast corner of Nebraska and my work is well known throughout the Midwest.
Heres a couple really obvious holes I found in a old carrier recently the gas company tagged for the flue pipe ,the guy wanted me to run it in new b-vent.
I told him to let me check the furnace before dumping a bunch of money into it and these hit me right in the face,do you want me to tell you the most obvious place to check trane 80% furmaces for cracks? How about goodman?
Its not rocket science by any means to work on a furnace,no matter how much you want to make yourself believe it is.
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sourdough
Well-known member
No, this whole discussion has NOT revolved around safety, except maybe in your mind. The OP was disgusted that he could not purchase a freaking combustion air switch locally without a huge markup or because he could not procure it because he was not a "professional".
In the last 3 of your posts, addressing myself, Zmax, and possibly Wil, you have illustrated the Alpha Male HVAC contractor attitude I alluded to when referring to some contractors who have swelled heads.
See my BOLD in your last post. The pressure switch ONLY proves up the combustion air fan (herein CAF in this post). That's why the 2 tubes connected to the pressure switch are placed on the intake and discharge sides of the CAF. In old school language it's called a pitot tube arrangement. It has nothing to do with the condition of the heat exchanger.
If your tech comes out with a manometer and determines that the air flow is inadequate, he's going to check the stack at the roof-jack for blockage, operation of the CAF (no noise, rattles, airflow), tubing leaks or blockages, and the operation of the pressure switch. (BTW, I have had to replace the original CAF 3 years ago because of the "rattle": it's a cheap FASCO fan in a convoluted housing that allows no replacement of the fan motor without having a sheetmetal shop in your garage. I have a new replacement on hand.)
I, and others, can do the same without a manometer.
Is your tech able to come up with a schematic on while on the service call site if the customer does not have one? I have one, and I am very adept at reading one.
Moreover, if I had called your company for service and you and one of your techs had displayed the same attitude as you have in your posts, that would have been the last time you would have gotten money from me.
I think I understand your CYA point of view as a business owner: litigation is rampant in this country for either real or perceived complaints/lawsuits.
This is a garage journal wherein ideas are tossed about and discussed on a personal level.
sms, I am sorry if I offend you, but I need to put my $.02 out here.
Have a good Thanksgiving day!
Jim
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
So if you pull the pressure switch out of the furnace and it shows the switch is closed instead of open when you check it with your multi meter what does that tell you?
It tells me the switch is supposed to be n/o until a vacuam is put to it by the inducer motor,but instead it is stuck closed and will not allow the gas valve to be opened up.
I did all of that without a vacuam gauge.
It tells me the switch is supposed to be n/o until a vacuam is put to it by the inducer motor,but instead it is stuck closed and will not allow the gas valve to be opened up.
I did all of that without a vacuam gauge.
So if you pull the pressure switch out of the furnace and it shows the switch is closed instead of open when you check it with your multi meter what does that tell you?
It tells me the switch is supposed to be n/o until a vacuam is put to it by the inducer motor,but instead it is stuck closed and will not allow the gas valve to be opened up.
I did all of that without a vacuam gauge.
It's not always black and white. Pressure switch issues are often intermittent. How are you going to know what is going on without teeing a magahelic into the system?
I had to replace a PS less then a year old last week under warranty.
The furnace would run for a time then lockout showing a PS fault. Teeing in a magnahelic showed the switch was in fact dropping out while under the proper vacuum. How would you diagnose this?zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Id sit and watch what the furnace was doing for a while.If the switch was dropping out that could be seen with a multi meter by watching voltage coming out of the switch .
Im just saying theres more than one way to test things,you use whatever tool works best for you to get the job done.
Im just saying theres more than one way to test things,you use whatever tool works best for you to get the job done.
Id sit and watch what the furnace was doing for a while.If the switch was dropping out that could be seen with a multi meter by watching voltage coming out of the switch .
Im just saying theres more than one way to test things,you use whatever tool works best for you to get the job done.
I'm not breaking you balls but..... York had an issue amongst there many, condensate was building up in the PS tube and intermittently causing PS lockouts. It was not the PS. Your method would have you running for a new switch. My method told me something was causing a loss in vacuum.
sourdough
Well-known member
It's not always black and white. Pressure switch issues are often intermittent. How are you going to know what is going on without teeing a magahelic into the system?
I had to replace a PS less then a year old last week under warranty.
So, did you discern why the switch dropped out? You replaced the switch with a new unit and had the same problem. As has been stated before: improper air flow as a constant, flaky new switch (not like new parts have failed, eh?). When you teed in the magnahelic, were all connections super tight? Were the hoses to the magnahelic too long to be recognized by the PS? Sh!t happens when you introduce other components into a system. Been there and done that.
If one introduces new elements into a system to determine problems, things can go wrong insofar as the diagnosis, especially if you are talking about something as small as a 4" FASCO combustion air fan, which I have. (There are larger air fans on very small refrigerator evaporators.)
Your magnahelic pressure delay can have a big difference when considering the timing of the control module.
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The new switch was original, the furnace was less then a year old. The magnahelic told me the PS was dropping out with a constant vacuum applied to it. Which obviously indicated the switch was bad.
Oh, the tee and piece of tube I use adds about 2" to the PS tube.
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zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
I worked for a York dealer back in the early 90s back before I opened my own shop,I still have nightmares about clanging York compressors!
Was the condensation noticeable in the tube when you removed the switch?
sms1974
Well-known member
Well it sounds like Ive got a few years on you there experience wise sunshine,Like I said before get over yourself.
As far as rusted out heat exchangers Id be willing to bet Ive checked/serviced as many furnaces as you,and Ive warranteed out more heat exchangers and replaced more cracked hot water and steam boiler sections then you could ever imagine .
Anytime you want to go head to head fixing a furnace or a boiler(hot water or steam),Res-Comm-Ind plumbing/steam fitting,Res-comm-Indust wiring or anything else you just let me know,Im right here in the southeast corner of Nebraska and my work is well known throughout the Midwest.
Heres a couple really obvious holes I found in a old carrier recently the gas company tagged for the flue pipe ,the guy wanted me to run it in new b-vent.
I told him to let me check the furnace before dumping a bunch of money into it and these hit me right in the face,do you want me to tell you the most obvious place to check trane 80% furmaces for cracks? How about goodman?
Its not rocket science by any means to work on a furnace,no matter how much you want to make yourself believe it is.
If you have so much experience and knowledge then you know the proper way to check out a pressure switch and that an electric meter will only get you so far... I'll go up against you any day of the week and twice on Sunday. You strike me as most of the old timers in this industry, they've done it so long they know it all but couldn't tell you how a flame sensor or a variable speed motor module works, or doesn't... And if you want to go on about Trane brand equipment I'll make you look like a fool in a hurry. We've been Trane dealers since day 1 of Tranes existence and we were GE before and Tappan before that... Goodman **** is junk and you can collect all the popped crimp rings you want out of there crapy heat exchangers...
I don't need to get over my self but it sure sounds like you do
I worked for a York dealer back in the early 90s back before I opened my own shop,I still have nightmares about clanging York compressors!
Was the condensation noticeable in the tube when you removed the switch?
No. They eventually had a tech bulletin on how to re-do the PS tubing to fix it.
sms1974
Well-known member
Jim, sorry but your wrong on many points you tried to make... I can give you several service reports that begin with a pressure switch fault and end with a compromised heat exchanger, complete with pictures...
As for safety being just in my head I'm ok with that, and my customers appreciate that there safety is my biggest concern... Why do you think supply houses don't sell parts to just anyone off the street... My point from the beginning has been one thing. There is often a secondary problem when the problem presents as a bad switch...
And don't worry you sound like the pain in the *** customer that no tech wants to deal with cause you already know it all...
Happy turkey day to you as well
sms1974
Well-known member
Do you realize even a junior tech would laugh at this...
sms1974
Well-known member
I give up on this thread... My intention from the start was to express that there are several variables that can cause a furnace to show a pressure switch error code it does not always mean the switch is bad. Sometimes yes it is just the switch, more often it is not...
Bigwil I hope you get your issue sorted out, hopefully to your satisfaction to the cost and of your own time invested.
That said I'm out were all just chasing each other trying to one up each other. I'll put my money where my mouth is any day of the week when it comes to my knowledge and abilities. I just don't see the sense in the perpetual skeptisism and what if's...
Bigwil I hope you get your issue sorted out, hopefully to your satisfaction to the cost and of your own time invested.
That said I'm out were all just chasing each other trying to one up each other. I'll put my money where my mouth is any day of the week when it comes to my knowledge and abilities. I just don't see the sense in the perpetual skeptisism and what if's...
Thank you, sms1974.
Based on the posts here, I will let you guys know if the new switch corrects the problem or not. I'm fairly certain it will, but I have been wrong before.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Yeah I remember Ge and fedders /knock off trane stuff also,so whats your point?Goodman has no more problems than any other brand out there if its installed right.
Open up your trane wreck furnace and look at who the controls and moving parts are made by,then open up any other brand of furnace and start comparing names on the parts.Trane might stamp out the case and heat exchanger ,but everything else is made by the lowest bidder just like every other brand.
You might work for a shop that was a trane wreck dealer from day one,problem being that you were probably still in diapers back then.
I started out working as an apprentice during the summer of 71 when I was 16,I worked my way up through the trades before going in the Army in 82-91.
Got out and went back in the trades starting my own shop in 96,then I bought out a plumbing/boiler contracting co that had been in business in 1920 .
I retired and sold my original co in 2010,but ended up getting the business back about a year ago.
After the 1st of the year I might be bored enough to start doing it full time again since people wont quit calling me to fix stuff anyway,ya never know.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
Could you move the ps up higher to eliminate the low spot in the tube?
Funny you mention it, that was how I determined what the problem was. I temporarily hung the PS up high with a piece of 12" tube and the problem went away. I'm not 100% (My memory is not too good anymore), but I believe Yorks solution was to leave the switch where it was and create a taller vertical loop.
zmaxmotorsports
Well-known member
That's the difference between a service guy and an installer,you found a way around the problem which makes you a service guy.
If I had a dollar for everytime I tried to convince young new construction plumbers/electricians/hvac guys to learn the basics doing installs,then get into service work Id have to open my own bank branch!
Ive always said that I could teach a monkey to drill holes/pull romex/sweat copper or bang tin together,which really limits you to where you can go with it.
Most service guys I know on the other hand can do installs if need be,but at 2:00 in the morning when something doesn't work a service guy is priceless in my book anyway.
sourdough
Well-known member
As an expert contractor, please explain why. You throw out all replies while never delineating the reasons. Point in case: you not addressing a bad heat exchanger while claiming that could cause a combustion air fan failure/pressure switch failure.
I am sure you have procedures in place for all of your techs to comply with your business practices. I seriously believe that your viewpoint has to do with CYA as a contractor.
Seriously awaiting why my diagnoses for combustion air switch failure won't work other than that your junior tech would find it laughable.
If, as you have stated, you don't want to respond to idiot folks such as myself, I'll just treat it as such.
Carry on, sir.
Jim
mygarageone
Well-known member
I have been following this thread and being a so called x pert many times all they know is what the book or school training tells them to do. Many times they can not think outside the box to evaluate a problem. Which is part of being an excellent tech person.
Example, back when Glowcore was in business , I had a furnace that would shut down several times a nite and only at nite. I did everything the engineering specs said to check , didn't find the problem. So I camped out right next to the furnace , it took me almost all nite but I managed to find the problem , it was nothing they ever imagined or planned for .
After I corrected the problem , no parts required . The company engineering tech dept , ask me to do a write up . I said sure when you pay me for my expertise and time.
They said no and I never told them What I found . Glowcore went out of business from lack of understanding there own product. Yet it was an excellent product but poorly tested And that will always get you trouble.
Example, back when Glowcore was in business , I had a furnace that would shut down several times a nite and only at nite. I did everything the engineering specs said to check , didn't find the problem. So I camped out right next to the furnace , it took me almost all nite but I managed to find the problem , it was nothing they ever imagined or planned for .
After I corrected the problem , no parts required . The company engineering tech dept , ask me to do a write up . I said sure when you pay me for my expertise and time.
They said no and I never told them What I found . Glowcore went out of business from lack of understanding there own product. Yet it was an excellent product but poorly tested And that will always get you trouble.
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