Pressure treated wood and kids

[NorthernVA]

I started to build a swing/playset this weekend out of pressure treated wood. Im starting to have second thoughts. I know they removed the arsenic around 2003, but who really knows...

I just finished building the main support structure, I think I am going to use composite decking in the areas where the little one may hang out and play. Opinions??

 

[blazentrout]

I see no issues with using it. played on the old sckool ones for years and i am fine. now if little johny or susie is trying to eat it then you need to have a hand to **** talk with them about it. I believe that it really a non issue unless you are a scientist from California.

 

[NorthernVA]

I remember slicing my hands on the rusty one in my backyard...

 

[CJM8515]

Used them when I was a kid, Im still here and fine. If you get a splinter it ***** but otherwise fine.

 

[Moss]

I say there are way worse things out there that children are exposed too. It's refreshing that you took the time to think about it but I personally wouldn't worry about it. The kids will add years to their lives playing outside instead of watching television!

 

[TonkaJoe]

I'm more concerned over my neighbour burning treated wood in her fireplace.. I get a good lung full every time I go outside, some days it's so prevailing it's like I have my head stuck down her chimney when I'm in my shop with all the doors and windows closed!. Not good!!

 

[VersionOne]

Prime and paint out of the question??

 

[tool-guy]

You'll get more arsenic in a potato of equivalent size of a piece of timber.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Pressure wash it when you are done. If you are still concerned, use a wood stain/finish like TWP. You would get a bigger exposure by handling the fresh wet wood right from the lumber yard, and sucking in the saw dust, than anyone else will, after the first few weeks of weathering. Using composite decking couldn't hurt.

 

[dynahoe]

the new stuff is safe the old stuff is deadly.I used my miter saw to cut some for a small project never considered the sawdust as dangerous.my cat laid in the dust pile and then cleaned herself and was dying two days later.vet said it was antifreeze,no coolant around thought about it for a few weeks and figured it out.the web stated that a 12 foot 2x6 had enough arsenic to kill 20 adults,sounds extreme but..... use the new stuff and round over any corners and edges

 

[Showkey]

I am thinking the GJ members are far more level headed and have more common sense than the "radical mom types" that want to ban all playgrounds for all sorts of reasons including the wood.

There are many groups that believe the ground up tire mulch under the play ground equipment is huge problem and must be removed.

 

[Pstychologist]

composite decking will be less likely to lift and twist, making a trip hazard.

 

[kd3pc]

not an issue, at all.

If you are worried, go with the composite, but it has it's own environmental issues when you get right down to it. It's plastic and a lot of people just don't like any of the plastics.

good luck, just remember you can not bubblewrap your kids, and if this annoys you think about when they turn 16 and get their driver's license and start serious dating, etc, etc. This is just the first phase in a life time of kid worry.

 

[Jackfre]

There were two reasons they pulled those old playgrounds. Certainly the toxic chemicals, but also the wood is major sliver producing ****. can you get your hands on some redwood?

 

[NorthernVA]

Thanks for all the replies. I feel better about using the PT. I was planning to seal everything in a few months after its dried out. I'm probably going to go with the composite decking. I think it will look more "professional" with it anyways. I'll post some pics after I'm done.

 

[madison069]

I use the pressure treated wood on the pool base and I'm not concerned with the kids getting exposed to it.

 

[David C]

I would paint the PT wood. Kids touch things and then put their fingers in their mouth. We generally know the short term affects of high concentrations of many chemicals but we don't know the long term affects of small concentrations. Not saying your kids would be affected but for a few coats of paint why take a chance. If it was a deck then I wouldn't bother painting.

I don't know if you will let neighor kids use your swing set, but here, where I live, a parent would latch onto the very remote, to non-existant, possibility of poison sickening their child and sue you.

 

[Casey69]

well, the old stuff was much nastier than the new stuff (arsenic vs copper). you could use cedar for the decking/railings & PT for everything else to keep it in budget, or just paint it after the PT stuff "dries out" a few months after construction.

i'd probably paint/stain it, that would seal it up & cedar is spendy.

 

[sublimate]

You'll get more arsenic in a potato of equivalent size of a piece of timber.

Where do I find a potato that's 10 feet long?

 

[reader2580]

There is a play structure at the house I just bought made of PT wood. It is almost certainly arsenic treated. The bigger problems are most of the wood is warped and it is full of splinters. I would be more concerned about the splinters and warping than the chemicals.

I have no kids and probably wouldn't let any kids play on it so I will tear it down this summer. No, I won't burn the wood.

 

[Rock knocker]

I don't know if you will let neighor kids use your swing set, but here, where I live, a parent would latch onto the very remote, to non-existant, possibility of poison sickening their child and sue you.

Would get thrown out before it went to court. Sued for what? A child may get sick?

 

[Kaizen]

I was building one back when they were converting and in my research the only fact the only animal including people that is documented dying from the old pt wood was a cow that ate the ash left over from a bunch of pt that the farmer burned. guess its salty.
your kid could **** on a piece all day and not get any from it.
The new stuff since then is even more safe.

 

[David C]

Would get thrown out before it went to court. Sued for what? A child may get sick?

All that has to happen is one child gets sick after playing on the swing set and the parent believes that the poison on the swing set was the cause. School districts here in CA would never, ever, use PT wood in a location where a student could touch it.

I can see from your comment that you don't have much experience with civil suits, and you should be grateful. What you describe, while apparently rational, does not happen. What really happens is the plaintiff files a suit, the defendent contacts his insurance co, and they negotiate a settlement. The more likely the suit has merrit the larger the negotiated settlement, but the insurance company will almost always settle prior to a trial because they, and their attorneys, know that the outcome is a "**** shoot" (their words). Insurance companies will almost always pay a known fixed amount now rather than take the risk of a trial.

I have personally seen situations where mold is discovered in a building and several people get sick. Most were not sick until after the mold was discovered though they claim they had been feeling "off" for months. Disability claims follow. I have have seen a school district test indoor air quality and as a result people claim illnesses. The actual tests showed no air quality issues. It was the presence of the testing people that caused the situation. Often a single claim precipitates several others as this explains why they had been feeling poorly or had arguments with their spouse.

These are, for the most part, not dishonest people however they are susceptible to suggestion.

 

[Casey69]

your kid could **** on a piece all day and not get any from it.

no thanks. old pt lumber was nasty; i was framing a doghouse using the that stuff & and occasionally see a thick green ooze seep out around the fresh nails. i didn't want my dog around this, so i covered the interior with plywood. glad they switched to copper as the preservative.

 

[Rock knocker]

Would get thrown out before it went to court. Sued for what? A child may get sick?

All that has to happen is one child gets sick after playing on the swing set and the parent believes that the poison on the swing set was the cause. School districts here in CA would never, ever, use PT wood in a location where a student could touch it.

I can see from your comment that you don't have much experience with civil suits, and you should be grateful. What you describe, while apparently rational, does not happen. What really happens is the plaintiff files a suit, the defendent contacts his insurance co, and they negotiate a settlement. The more likely the suit has merrit the larger the negotiated settlement, but the insurance company will almost always settle prior to a trial because they, and their attorneys, know that the outcome is a "**** shoot" (their words). Insurance companies will almost always pay a known fixed amount now rather than take the risk of a trial.

I have personally seen situations where mold is discovered in a building and several people get sick. Most were not sick until after the mold was discovered though they claim they had been feeling "off" for months. Disability claims follow. I have have seen a school district test indoor air quality and as a result people claim illnesses. The actual tests showed no air quality issues. It was the presence of the testing people that caused the situation. Often a single claim precipitates several others as this explains why they had been feeling poorly or had arguments with their spouse.

These are, for the most part, not dishonest people however they are susceptible to suggestion.

Are you a lawyer? The dangers of mold have been certified as true. The EPA has tested residential treated wood, and found it not particularly dangerous. Maybe you could link us to some sites where law suits over non arsenic containing PT wood did lead to lawsuits.

Is treated wood safe for raised bed gardening?
AWPA is primarily a standards developer, much like ASTM, but specific to products and processes which increase the longevity of wood products. As such, our expertise is in wood durability, and NOT human health and safety. We rely on the U.S. EPA to determine product safety during their registration process. It is our understanding that the wood preservatives used in treated wood available to consumers have been registered by EPA for general use, which means that EPA has determined it is relatively safe for most, if not all, consumer applications. Different people perceive safety in different ways. If you're concerned, you could always apply some type of coating or sealer to reduce the amount of soil contact with the preservative treated wood, or perhaps even put a sheet of plastic between the treated wood and the soil if you want to minimize or eliminate contact between wood and soil. Please note that most of the treated wood that’s two inches or less in thickness tends to be treated for above-ground uses, so it may not last very long in a ground-contact application. Be sure to contact the manufacturer of the treated wood product or the manufacturer of the wood preservative chemical for information on product safety. There should be contact information on the end tag of the treated wood at your lumber retailer.

http://www.awpa.com/references/homeowner.asp

 

[ThePress]

In our part of Canada, we basically have 3 kinds of treated lumber: CCA, PWF and ACQ. PWF is used for foundations, ACQ is the safest and used for fencing and decks....CCA is not certified and is dangerous....

 

[David C]

I am not an attorney.

I don't know how to research for lawsuits filed and not tried, or if it is even possible.

 

[Rock knocker]

I can see from your comment that you don't have much experience with civil suits

I am not an attorney.

I don't know how to research for lawsuits filed and not tried, or if it is even possible.

'nuff said on your part

 

[Showkey]

Maybe a better question............

Would you make a picnic table out of PT wood ?

 

[David C]

Why would you make a table top or swing set from PT would when there are perfectly good alternatives.

Consider what I think Mr. Knocker is impling that yea we know mold is toxic but the EPA says that PT wood isn't so bad. So how can there be a law suit. A law suit can be filed, and sometimes is, making claims that completely erroneous or falacious. The law suit will likely move forward.

Arsenic, lead, and Mercury are heavy metals and are toxic. Copper is a heavy metal and compounds of copper are toxic. This is known science. We all (you, Mr. Knocker, and I) believe that the LD50 weight of arsenic is far less than that of copper but that does not mean that the copper in your PT wood is safe.

Plaintiff claims to have a disease with non specific symptons or of unknown etiology. Furthermore he claims that the disease was the result of exposure to your PT wood. The legal claim has been made and you have to defend yourself. You might think this is bunk but the judge does not know and he will likely let the legal process proceed.

As the claim moves forward Plaintiff hires a legal expert who asserts that copper compounds are toxic. You sight the EPA document that Mr. Knocker quotes from. It does not say that PT wood is 100% safe. You can bring in your own expert that says that the kid would have had to eat the entire table top to get sick. Plaintiff's expert will say that isn't true and that you can not be certain of such a statement. You can not find any scientific literature that states what quantity of ingested copper is safe. Sure you can find what quantity of copper is considered safe in drinking water but you can not find what quantity is the minimum that will cause illness. And the case will still go forward.

Your insurance company's attorney will start settlement talks the minute the first round of documents are exchanged. You might not be informed of such but that is the way of our legal system. What's more your insurance company will likely pay what they believe is a reasonable amount to settle the case whether you like it or not. This is just how it is.

A perverse wrinkle to this situation is if you do not have any assests, and are not insured, the plaintiffs attorney may not follow through with the law suit. Just the way it is.

 

[Rock knocker]

This has happened to you?

 

[David C]

Mr. Knocker,

Lets try this your way.

Attached pls find the material safety data sheet for pressure treated lumber. It says in part and the referenced document is attached so that no claims of taking information out of context can be made:

ACQ Pressure Treated Lumber
Potential health affects
Eyes: Dust or splinters may cause irritation or injury.
Skin: Contact with skin may cause irritation.
Dusts of this project may cause irritaion to the nose throat, or repiratory tract.
Ingestion: Not applicable under normal conditions of use. May result in obstruction or temporary irritation of the digestive tract.

There is a section in this document titled first aid measures that states "If wood or wood dust is swallowed, get immediate medical attention or advice-Do not induce vomiting."

You opinion appears to be that this product is safe.

What is your complete opinion.
Please state why you believe that PT lumber is safe, if that is what you believe.
Please provide qualifications that show any experience you have or why your opinion is valid.
Please provide any literature or references that substantiate your opinions.

Please explain why you think that a law suit claiming adverse health effects from exposure to PT lumber"Would get thrown out before it went to court." Your words.

I have stated my own personal experience with law suits which is limited. What is yours? Why do you question what I have said? I am good with questions or debate on this issue.

I had hoped that my posts were simply another view to the topic at hand. The OP asked a question and I gave him my opinion, which is based upon my experience as a consultant to school districts and (very limited) experience in civil law suits. I don't like arguing or contentious back and forth posts. I would just as soon let it go or let you win if that is your desire. If I have misunderstood your intentions then consider this simply another way of discussion the issue and please accept my appology for suspecting otherwise.

 

[Rock knocker]

ACQ Pressure Treated Lumber
Potential health affects
Eyes: Dust or splinters may cause irritation or injury.
Skin: Contact with skin may cause irritaion.
Dusts of this project may cause irritaion to the nose throat, or repiratory tract.
Ingestion: Not applicable under normal conditions of use. May result in obstruction or temporary irritation of the digestive tract.

I think that says everything. You started this off by saying ".... if a child gets sick ....court...bla bla bla" which is all baseless.

 

[64coupedeluxe]

Where do I find a potato that's 10 feet long?

That right there is Gold!

 

[colt zantop]

Why not use cedar?

That composite stuff gets really hot in the sun so be careful with that.

 

[NorthernVA]

Well i started this thread and i thought it would be a good place to show off my build. Key features are:

Steering wheel from a 46 Jeep
Beer bottle holder (for daddy)
Rock Wall
Slide
Swings
Did i mention a beer bottle holder

 

[Koken]

Mr. Knocker,

Lets try this your way.

Attached pls find the material safety data sheet for pressure treated lumber. It says in part and the referenced document is attached so that no claims of taking information out of context can be made:

ACQ Pressure Treated Lumber
Potential health affects
Eyes: Dust or splinters may cause irritation or injury.
Skin: Contact with skin may cause irritation.
Dusts of this project may cause irritaion to the nose throat, or repiratory tract.
Ingestion: Not applicable under normal conditions of use. May result in obstruction or temporary irritation of the digestive tract.

There is a section in this document titled first aid measures that states "If wood or wood dust is swallowed, get immediate medical attention or advice-Do not induce vomiting."

You opinion appears to be that this product is safe.

What is your complete opinion.
Please state why you believe that PT lumber is safe, if that is what you believe.
Please provide qualifications that show any experience you have or why your opinion is valid.
Please provide any literature or references that substantiate your opinions.

Please explain why you think that a law suit claiming adverse health effects from exposure to PT lumber"Would get thrown out before it went to court." Your words.

I have stated my own personal experience with law suits which is limited. What is yours? Why do you question what I have said? I am good with questions or debate on this issue.

I had hoped that my posts were simply another view to the topic at hand. The OP asked a question and I gave him my opinion, which is based upon my experience as a consultant to school districts and (very limited) experience in civil law suits. I don't like arguing or contentious back and forth posts. I would just as soon let it go or let you win if that is your desire. If I have misunderstood your intentions then consider this simply another way of discussion the issue and please accept my appology for suspecting otherwise.

That pertains to California only.........(It is a joke!) Life is certain to cause death. Riding in a car is more dangerous than handling PT lumber. Round the edges with a router and enjoy it.

 

[Stevedore]

Well i started this thread and i thought it would be a good place to show off my build. Key features are:

Steering wheel from a 46 Jeep
Beer bottle holder (for daddy)
Rock Wall
Slide
Swings
Did i mention a beer bottle holder

Great job! Your kids will love it, & will remember it long after they outgrow it.

 

[premierplayer]

NICE playset, lotta fun to be had there, enjoy!