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Pressure washer trips gfci with no load.

RSVRMAN

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If an electrical expert could help would be greatly appreciated. I recently got a new pressure washer from northern tool. It is the 5hp North Star 3000 psi 2.5 gpm one. It runs on 230v on a 6-30r nema plug. I have wired in short run to a new receptacle. I used 8ga wire and a 30 amp breaker.

The issue - When I plug in the pressure washer it has a built in line gfci. It instructs to hit the test button and then reset. The issue is that it will pop after about 10 seconds. It will do this with the motor running or under no load. I tried flipping the breaker, unplugging etc. Well I kept hitting the reset button until one time it didn't click off after the 10 seconds. I turned the motor on and then it worked for the full 30 mins I needed to wash both cars without issue.

I tested it via multi meter and did a test with a space heater that uses the same type of plug without issue. It's not in a damp environment. I don't know if it's a defective gfci unit or there's some weird pixies that are triggering it.
 

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ddawg16

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My pressure washer did the same thing.

I cut if off...installed a standard male plug....and no problems since.

All of my outside outlets are GFCI....non have never tripped.
 

wyliesdiesels

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sounds like a defective GFCI.

Testing the outlet wont tell u anything because the GFCI is after the outlet, so its on the line side of the GFCI....
 
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RSVRMAN

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My pressure washer did the same thing.

I cut if off...installed a standard male plug....and no problems since.

All of my outside outlets are GFCI....non have never tripped.

I considered this, but do like the added protection in the event of 240v crawling up my leg.

sounds like a defective GFCI.

Testing the outlet wont tell u anything because the GFCI is after the outlet, so its on the line side of the GFCI....

This is what I was thinking, I had read about other people with gfci issues stated it could be a ground loop? First time I've ever had a gfci issue, normally they are the receptacle though and not in line.
 

Marctrees

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I would HIGHLY discourage removing it from the machine, because, your 230v outlet is NOT GFI'd, (unless you fed from GFI breaker) and you will be using this in the perfect situation for a shock hazard.

If it was a little 120v, I'd investigate, and if the end is faulty, replace w regular good cord end, and plug into a 120 GFI.

But it ain't 120.

Water flyin around, wet hands, wet feet, standing on ground.

Make sure life insurance paid up.


If it was a little 120v unit, rather than shipping back, I'd consider investigating, and if the end is faulty, replace w regular good cord end, and plug into a 120 GFI.

But it ain't 120.

Course, then they can say you voided warranty.


So, it's either a defective cord GFI, OR the cord and connections itself, nevertheless, something on the line side of the unit switch, or switch body itself, is slightly faulted to ground, not enough to trip the breaker.

BTW - I am planning on buying this exact same washer later this summer, and would really like your thoughts on it after the fix.

Make sure you run electric washers w some sort of GFI protection.

Marc
 
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wyliesdiesels

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I considered this, but do like the added protection in the event of 240v crawling up my leg.

Very hard to be shocked by 240v since potential to ground is only 120v.

In order to get shocked by 240v, one would have to be holding one hot leg in one hand and the other in the other hand...

This is what I was thinking, I had read about other people with gfci issues stated it could be a ground loop? First time I've ever had a gfci issue, normally they are the receptacle though and not in line.

GFCIs dont care about grounds and EGCs so that is false.

All a GFCI cares about is the current flowing out on the hot leg and the current flowing back on the neutral leg for 120v GFCIs(240v GFCIs measure current on both hot legs and neutral). If the measured current on the conductors doesnt match by more than 5ma, the GFCI trips to protect life....
 
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RSVRMAN

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If it's new, return it and get another one :wtf:.
(And get a cover plate for that receptacle)

Got the cover plate on the way Home Depot was out. Thank you for looking out!

Or that the pressure washer itself is faulty.

Doubting the pressure washer is bad as it runs fine, when it stays on.

Buy a gas pressure washer

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

I like to wash early in the morning and I live in a pretty dense area, electric has its benefits. But you can't beat the cost/performance of a gas unit
 
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RSVRMAN

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I would HIGHLY discourage removing it from the machine, because, your 230v outlet is NOT GFI'd, (unless you fed from GFI breaker) and you will be using this in the perfect situation for a shock hazard.

If it was a little 120v, I'd investigate, and if the end is faulty, replace w regular good cord end, and plug into a 120 GFI.

But it ain't 120.

Water flyin around, wet hands, wet feet, standing on ground.

Make sure life insurance paid up.


If it was a little 120v unit, rather than shipping back, I'd consider investigating, and if the end is faulty, replace w regular good cord end, and plug into a 120 GFI.

But it ain't 120.

Course, then they can say you voided warranty.


So, it's either a defective cord GFI, OR the cord and connections itself, nevertheless, something on the line side of the unit switch, or switch body itself, is slightly faulted to ground, not enough to trip the breaker.

BTW - I am planning on buying this exact same washer later this summer, and would really like your thoughts on it after the fix.

Make sure you run electric washers w some sort of GFI protection.

Marc

Just wanted to comment on using it so far. Still stumped as today I really wanted to use it. I had to reset it twice over the course of two hours. It would run for about 30-40 mins without issue so I really have no idea, but I will probably call northstar and see what they say.

It's everything I ever wanted in a pressure washer and more. Even if I had to return it I would get it again. Last year when I lived in MN I used a friends harbor freight 3100 psi 2.8 gallon axial pump washer with the turbo end to strip my fence. It worked great and did the job plenty fast. Well since I had it I cleaned the house siding, cars lawn mower etc. This one has a lot more umph to it. I don't have a way of measuring, but when it first sprayed it with the 25 green bitend it literally flew out of my hands. It had been awhile since I'd used one like this with that much power.

It cleans the vehicles effortlessly and I combined it with the foam gun for some pretty great results. I also hit some concrete where there was black algie and it cleaned it up with the green tip and not the pin hole tip.

The other nice thing is how quiet it is. It makes the same noise as my old 120v $100 Black Friday pressure washers that I threw away yearly lol. Once you get to spraying you can't even hear it vs using the gas where it's very noisy. The other plus is there's no vibration in the handle like gas units. My hands would always go numb from that pulsing, but not with this.

We used to use I believe it was Simpson pressure washers back on the farm and they all had about the same specs as this, but they all had CAT pumps. My uncle was horrible about maintaining them and we used them at least every other day. Over the years I never remember seeing him rebuild one and they all still worked when I moved away. So I'm a big CAT pump fan. I think you would be very happy. They have it with $50 off now and I had a coupon for $50 off $500 or more.
Free shipping as well

Very hard to be shocked by 240v since potential to ground is only 120v.

In order to get shocked by 240v, one would have to be holding one hot leg in one hand and the other in the other hand...



GFCIs dont care about grounds and EGCs so that is false.

All a GFCI cares about is the current flowing out on the hot leg and the current flowing back on the neutral leg for 120v GFCIs(240v GFCIs measure current on both hot legs and neutral). If the measured current on the conductors doesnt match by more than 5ma, the GFCI trips to protect life....

Interesting, always thought of it has high voltage, but makes since as it is just two hots (120) so it wouldn't be quite as bad, but would still like to not be shocked. Hah

Like the others said, it's under warranty. Return it.

Going to call northstar and see what they say. I'm guessing. They will send replacement parts as needed, which is ok. It was shipped to CA on a pallet, which I'm sure wasn't cheap. If it's gfci I see the existing cord should be very easy to replace.




Thank you again everyone for the help, much appreciated.
 

Marctrees

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RSV - Done a lot of research before I decided on this model.

I'm pretty sure to get anything better anywhere, it would be at least $400 more.

This is a very good value considering the components used, output, and price.

Marc
 
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RSVRMAN

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RSV - Done a lot of research before I decided on this model.

I'm pretty sure to get anything better anywhere, it would be at least $400 more.

This is a very good value considering the components used, output, and price.

Marc

Ya, Northstar has also been very good to work with. I called them when I first got it as the shipper lost the 2nd box and they overnighted the parts to me. With the power issue they said they would ship a new one out or I can go to a local place to have them look it over and service it. Since it was only a few miles drive, I dropped it off for them to look at. When they were this good to me and very helpful I hate to see them eat the freight all the way back if it's a simple fix.

Same as you I did a ton of research and read a lot of reviews. I don't think there is a compatible psi\gpm model with this much quality at a lower price. Will update the thread with what the problem was.
 
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RSVRMAN

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I was going to, however they have that void warranty tape on both the gfci and the switch. Since I didn't want to void it since it's new or risk a return I didn't open it.
 
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RSVRMAN

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Ok, so I got the call to pickup the pressure washer. The service guy said that there's nothing wrong with it. He said he tested the resistance, went into detail, however most was over my head. He said that he has a 240V plug, however there is no ground to it. He ran it for 20 minutes without an issue. I asked that without the ground, wouldn't it not throw the GFCI reset switch? He said that with how he tested it, that his tester would show if there was a problem with the switch or the windings/wirings of the motor.

I guess I don't fully understand if he did a proper test, if his 240v plug doesnt have a ground.

When I got home, I opened up the main box, rechecked all the wires, pulled the outlet apart and even pulled the conduit off the wires to see if something was off. Everything is brand new and no stray bits of wire anywhere.

I'm at a loss of what it could be?
 

ard

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Without a ground, he did not properly test the GROUND FAULT interrupter. IMO

Tell him the issue may NOT be 'the switch" nor 'the windings'...but rather "the integrated GFCI'. how did he test that component?

Tell him unless he tests the unit on a NEC-compliant outlet (ie one that has a ground just like instructed in the operating manual) you cannot take the unit back.

Again there may not be anything wrong with the windings and the switch- it may in fact be a defective GFCI
 
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RSVRMAN

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This is what I was thinking and what I asked, if there was no ground, then would it trip the GFCI, to which his response was that his testing tool would tell if there was something wrong with the GFCI.
 

EOC_Jason

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His 240V receptacle without a ground? You mean he probably just ran a couple wires from his breaker box temporarily and wrapped them around each prong.... *rolleyes*

I'm not sure what a testing tool would be for a device like that with the GFCI on the power cord. I know for receptacles you plug in a special tester and push a button to get it to trip. I would assume he would need something in-line, but without a ground I don't see how it would work...

Is there anything near your receptacle that could cause interference and maybe trip the GFCI?
 
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RSVRMAN

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I'm not entirely sure how he did his testing. Unfortunately, I can't elaborate any further from what I shared in my other post.

There are no other outlets that are within 15' of the current 240v. It's wired up to the main breaker panel and is 2' as pictured. The inside of this panel has another 20 amp circuit that feeds the garage outlets and lights and one additional 50 amp circuit that feeds another box. Within the other box are the breakers for the rest of the house. This box is probably 25' from the outside. Since we are in CA I believe it has to be accessible from the outside due to earthquakes. The only thing that is on the other side of the box is the electronic meter so probably 3' away.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Ok, so I got the call to pickup the pressure washer. The service guy said that there's nothing wrong with it. He said he tested the resistance, went into detail, however most was over my head. He said that he has a 240V plug, however there is no ground to it. He ran it for 20 minutes without an issue. I asked that without the ground, wouldn't it not throw the GFCI reset switch? He said that with how he tested it, that his tester would show if there was a problem with the switch or the windings/wirings of the motor.

I guess I don't fully understand if he did a proper test, if his 240v plug doesnt have a ground.

When I got home, I opened up the main box, rechecked all the wires, pulled the outlet apart and even pulled the conduit off the wires to see if something was off. Everything is brand new and no stray bits of wire anywhere.

I'm at a loss of what it could be?

Ok so here's the deal.

A GFCI outlet or breaker doesnt need a ground to operate and trip when current is leaking outside the hot and neutral (or hot and hot in this case).

In the case of portable equipment, such as a pressure washer, without the ground hooked up, there is no alternate pathway for potential leakage current to go. Thus there would be no current imbalance between the 2 hot legs and the GFCI wont trip.

For example, say one of the motor windings contacts the motor housing which should be bonded to the chassis and connected to the ground pin on the plug. With the ground pin connected to a properly grounded outlet, the circuit is completed and the GFCI detects a current imbalance between each hot leg and trips.

In the service center's test setup, the ground wasnt hooked up and thus there was no way to complete a circuit with potential fault current on the chassis. Essentially, the electricity on the energized frame has no where to go. Had he hooked up the ground wire, Im sure it wouldve tripped.

If there was no GFCI on this machine, the breaker in the panel may trip depending on the resistance and how much fault current there is because that is a short.

I would explain all this to him and see what he says. He obviously doesnt know what he is doing.

Im really curious what his "tester" did.

IF you feel comfortable, u could put a multimeter inline between the ground on your outlet and the chassis of the washer. U would need to disconnect the ground from the outlet.

Nothing in your house, electrically wise, would interfere with the GFCI

Without a ground, he did not properly test the GROUND FAULT interrupter. IMO

Tell him the issue may NOT be 'the switch" nor 'the windings'...but rather "the integrated GFCI'. how did he test that component?

Tell him unless he tests the unit on a NEC-compliant outlet (ie one that has a ground just like instructed in the operating manual) you cannot take the unit back.

Again there may not be anything wrong with the windings and the switch- it may in fact be a defective GFCI

yup. Without an alternate pathway for current, there is no way to test the GFCI. The GFCI outlet testers short hot to ground which causes the GFCI to trip.
 
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RSVRMAN

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Thank you very much for the detailed response and further breaking it down for me to understand.

I think the best bet at this point is to reach back out to NorthStar and see what they say. With what you have relayed, I think it will be helpful for them to make a better judgement. Also good for them to know if one of their service vendors operates in this manner and how to handle it.

Will update and see what they say. Thanks again!
 

EOC_Jason

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Nothing in your house, electrically wise, would interfere with the GFCI

I was kind of thinking a possible EMI issue? Things like florescent lights are a common source that cause them to trip just by proximity, not even on the same circuit.

Heck, the smart meter actually generates quite a rf signal sending constant data updates to the poco... That's right there practically on the other side of the wall...

I know it's a stretch (and a big one).... But if he gets a new unit and it does the same thing... Then I think it would be something to consider.

Fingers crossed it's just a faulty GFCI or issue with the internal wiring and Northstar sends him a replacement.
 

Marctrees

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Wylies explained very well about how the GFI does not need a ground to it to function, but there does have to be a path to ground to allow it to trip if there is a leakage that results in unbalanced current.


Maybe at this point, time to just have Northern ship a replacement whole new washer.

I realize and hate that's it's a waste of resources all told, but you've already jumped through the hoops.

Just my thought.

Definately please stay with the thread and let us know what happens. Marc
 
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RSVRMAN

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Called NorthStar and they will be shipping me a new unit. The guy I spoke with was absolutely awesome to work with and I have to hand it to him. He will be shipping it 2 day instead of ground, which previously took 2 weeks. He also took all of the info down from what I said. To him it seems like they may no longer be a verified shop for repairs in the future.

Something I found that was really assuring is how he went into detail of his knowledge of pressure washers. I guess they have to spend I believe he said 1/2 a year assembling pressure washers at the factory before he can be a support for them. They also go back to re-train when they have new models. I received his direct line and will update him when the new one arrives to ensure the problem is rectified. He did comment that it could be the GFCI, however that failure is rather rare and for what I had done on my end it would be no problem to send a new one.

I have to really hand it to the NorthStar company, the technical support was stateside, understandable, knowledgeable and very friendly. Its great to know that if I have any issues during my 2 year warranty (which I hope to never use) they really do stand behind their product.
 

AntonLargiader

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Good resolution.

I understand the urge to get into the repair one's self, but the way I look at it you bought a device that doesn't work. It doesn't really matter if the problem is in the cord, the GFCI, the motor or what, it's all one device that didn't work right.
 
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RSVRMAN

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Well, now I have to go and recant my previous review of NorthStar. More on that below, sorry for the long text, but in the event someone searches and wants to know user experiences, I'm sharing it in full detail.

Since my last response, I reached out to a neighbor whom I'd heard by other neighbors was a retired electrician. When I bumped into him, I asked if he wouldn't mind looking into something for me. Kindly enough he was very obliged to help. He came over and tested my 230v verified that everything was right. Then he took a gander at the pressure washer, said he has a 240v receptacle in his garage and to be sure we could go test it on his outlet. Sure enough, the thing tripped 3 times before we could even get to turn it on. He said it could be one of many things, the wiring in the motor, the GFCI, or there could be a bad wiring/connections or a bare/worn wire within the wire. I went and got him a case of beer for his troubles and said if I ever need help, he's always thirsty. So in all this I at least made a new friend.

So onto my battle with Northstar. I called them again, as if they could me know it when the replacement unit would arrive since its 2 day shipping. Thus allowing me to track it and be home for the shipment. I contacted and asked for my previous rep that I was working with whose name is Chase. However, he was out so I spoke with Keith. He promptly looked into my account and I found out that they are only sending me a new GFCI unit. I then went over all of the details, parts missing, going to get it serviced, the due diligence on my end. His response was, we throw parts at it until its working, we don't do returns. I let him know that's not what Chase had told me, as you can tell by my surprised reaction. He said replace the GFCI unit and go from there. I responded that I'm not an electrical expert and that it could also be other things. Water and electricity don't mix and I'm not comfortable doing this. Keith then said you can bring it back to that service center. (By the way is about an hour drive one way) Which, I responded with, you want me to take it to the place that couldn't properly service it? Keith said Yup, that or do it yourself. I asked wouldn't that void the warranty, since I would need to peel the label, he responded no, we have notes so we will remember.

At this point I just ask if we can just return it. I no longer want the thing. I was not informed of this and I don't feel comfortable working on it. Keith responded by, well that's how it is. Either you fix it or send it to the shop. Those are your only options. He became more incrementally of an *** as I tried to find a resolution. Since we were going nowhere, even with me trying to resolve, I responded, well then I will use my options, 1st I will go through northern tool and return it that way, if I'm roadblocked I will do a chargeback on the credit card, whom usually side with customers as you have sent me a defective product. I would prefer to resolve the issue with you, however this will greatly complicate a process that doesn't need to be complicated. Keith's response, I don't care. I said, final answer? and then again I don't care..... After that the conversation was over.

Well, as a follow through I contacted NorthernTool. The person I was working with was extraordinary. She was very helpful on the phone. It may have helped when she pulled up my customer ID. (I have all klutch air tools, saws a variety of hand tools ratchets, lawn equipment) I'm guessing I'm probably close to around $2.5k+ in sales so far with them. One of the main reasons I got this from NorthernTool is because of how good of a company they have been in the past. Anyways, she said since she is bridging the customer/vendor relationship, she would be able to do an exchange, but not a return at this point. She was very apologetic, took all my info and names and said she would refer this to her director as vendors should be sorting this out. Also that I had gone above and beyond what I needed to in order for a peaceful resolve.

So now a new pressure washer is getting delivered and they will pickup the old one.

I will update again as I receive the new one, however now I'm changing my review of NorthStar. I can no longer recommend them, as while Chase was kind on the phone, he didn't follow through and instead sent me a new GFCI. Followed by Keith who, being unpleasant to work with is an understatement. If I had a chance to return it with my money, I would gladly do so and buy from another company.

Seeing how a simple thread has nearly 40,000 views they should take notice on their customer relations. I bent over backwards to try and make things right. Even sympathetic on not digging into their profits. They chose greed over customer service.
 

EOC_Jason

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That's one reason I buy things on my American Express... Extra year of warranty, return protection, and so much more... I remember when they used to have a price guarantee too, was great when buying computer parts.. lol.

Hope it all gets worked out. But yeah at least now you know if it trips on your neighbors then you know it's the pressure washer and not your electrical.
 
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