Pro Welders weigh in

[472scout]

Opening a new thread since the other thread was going off topic. So harbor freight ($89 120 volt flux core) welders came up and welding pictures were posted. I thought they looked suspect, but the poster is adamant they're plenty strong for a trailer he welded up. "hammered the **** out of it with a 2 pound sledge and not a single weld broke". I was trying to warn him not to trust them on his trailer, but he's not having any of it. "2 years and it is still holding". Ok, but what about 5, 10, 20 years down the road?

Here are the examples of his welds that he posted (he didn't post any of the actual trailer).



So what say GJ? Regardless of the welder brand would you trust those welds on something critical like a trailer?

 

[1948]

flux core welders are pretty much only for decorative fencing if they are 110, if they are 220 then they are for heavy steel construction. that being said, they ALWAYS look like ****, they pretty much never look good no matter how good you are. but those welds do look a little weak for a trailer. mostly because they arent very even and consistent. you can see the edge of the material he was welding on those ground down welds, it should cover those edges from edge to edge. also it does not appear that he champhered the edges before to get full penetration.

but, i dont know if the welds he did on the trailer looked like that or not.

 

[ericburns4]

Agree with the comment above flux core welders always look ****.

 

[koditten]

I agree, not very appealing. I would say if this was for a yard trailer, no big deal. I would not like to see those on the road tho.

I would have to do my own "destructive testing" before I could say anything about the streangth of the weld. Flux core is generally stronger than gas sheilded, but in this case I might disagree.

On the plus side, he is getting some good practice. Every good welder was once a ****** welder.

 

[JakeKohl]

Every good welder was once a ****** welder.

Oh, man...I'm making that sign to go in my garage.

 

[Journaler]

I compare those welds to my commercially built/bought trailer, and sadly, those aren't that bad.

Mine had tubing that was only welded on 1 side ( I'm talking cross members here). Some of the weld joints were blown through. Fought with manufacturer for almost a year now.

My point is, those welds may not be great, but I'm pretty sure there are worse on the road.

 

[Big-Foot]

Welder = Machine
Weldor = Operator of said machine

Flux core welders I have seen and used are inconsistent at best in the quality of weldments.

 

[Angelfire]

I'm not a pro but I wouldn't trust those welds to anything more than decorative. Certainly not something that was going to be on the road that could fail and hurt someone. Incomplete, inclusions, etc..... they just don't look good to my semi trained eye.

I'm still learning to weld (isn't everyone?) and my mantra based on my skill level today is "if it breaks and someone could die, I won't do it".

I'm getting better but still not sure I'm confident enough to weld up axles, suspensions, and such.....so for now, I'll stick to making log racks, etc...

 

[iagsxr]

"2 years and it is still holding".

How much longer you think it needs to go before you call it OK?


If you want to be worried about something, he undercut the **** out of the vertical piece in the lower picture with a grinder.

 

[IndyGarage]

Those are not good welds, even for flux core.

You can get a decent weld from a flux core welder, but they usually look pretty rough compared to a gas shielded weld, because the burning flux throws junk all over the place.

 

[stingry]

Poor welds but probably the fault of the operator not the machine!

 

[2mJps]

Agree with the comment above flux core welders always look ****.

I was ask to do some repairs on a trailer with a 110 flux core welder i had heared a lot of bad stuff about them but after i got it set it looked good. 30 years of welding helps.

 

[BTC]

Is it safe to assume that flux core is not the same as the rods with the flux on the outside? Based on my experience, you can get some nice looking beads with those types of rods. I guess I've never done flux core welding, and I'm obviously not a professional. If that's the best you can do with that type of welding, or welder, I would try something else. Those welds do not look very strong, imo. I certainly wouldn't want to put them in a situation where failure could lead to injury, death etc.

 

[BTC]

After a quick google search, I guess the rods with the flux on the outside is considered "Shielded Metal Arc Welding". I guess that's the only kind of welding I've ever done. You can get a little Lincoln or Miller arc welder that's fairly cheap. At least I think you can. I haven't actually bought one, or welded anything, in decades.

 

[Zeke]

Welder = Machine
Weldor = Operator of said machine

Flux core welders I have seen and used are inconsistent at best in the quality of weldments.

Even Jody at Welding Tips and Tricks doesn't use "weldor." However, I do most of the time.

As for FC welds being inconsistent, it must be the operator (or weldor) or the conditions such as wind. Same weld, same material, same conditions, I get consistent welds. I have to find the settings first. If you're still looking for the settings while welding up, the results WILL vary.

I don't mind FC at all. In fact, I like it. Sometimes I use the gas nozzle while doing FC. I think it helps contain the gas produced in the puddle a little. I could see using a little hood.

Except it would be hard to see the weld puddle.

 

[BTC]

I had something like this when I was growing up, http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K1170(LincolnElectric)

I guess it's not that cheap, but in comparison to other welders on their site it's very cheap. It's definitely not as cheap as the Harbor Freight welder mentioned in the other, associated thread.

 

[MG44]

I am not a professional welder by trade, but I have hundreds if not thousands of welding hours under my belt from the automotive repair industry.

Pretty welds are not always strong, and strong welds are not always pretty.

You will not always get pretty welds with fluxcore, but the thicker the metal the better the weld I have found with them. At my shop we are currently using a fluxcore because our miller mig is out for repair (probably replacement) due to an accident. We are welding exhaust everyday with a 110 fluxcore at the moment. It doesn't look pretty, but it doesn't leak, and surely is strong enough.

If that trailer has been in service for 2 years the welds have not broke, they are fine welds for the intended purpose obviously.

 

[srmofo]

I've done some welding with a cheap flux core and my biggest problem was always coaxing enough heat from the machine. I think that a proper repair can be done with a small machine depending on the repair needed and the operators skill level. Most trailers are made with .125 our thinner so it should be within the operating range. Fitment is going to play a part as well. I never used mine for more than exhaust work and brackets and such.

I didn't see the other pictures so i can't really say anything more than that. I certainly wouldn't want to be driving behind the trailer if all the welds on it look like that though. Pot holes going 60 miles an hour are going to produce much greater forces than a single man with a tiny 2lb hammer could ever duplicate

 

[rumpity_z28]

on a peace of tubing like that you would want to make sure the weld penetrates through to the back side. if the metal is to thick then you would want to pre the tube by bevelling both edges and leaving a small land for you to burn through with your wire or stick. prep has a lot to do with doing a good weld like anyting else you work on. on the square tubing you have pictured you would want the weld to be above the existing metal then you would grind it down flush or leave a little material protruding from the base metal, and again as with the round tubing you have pictured you would want to make sure you burn right through to the back side of the tube thats being welding to the existing tube.

 

[JakeKohl]

I'm a ****** weldOR with a cheap weldER and I put a couple of gates together with flux core wire. I had some moments of glory and some other moments that required my side grinder to recover from. It is possible to get a good weld with it.


hinge blocks welded by Team Seacats, on Flickr


hinge blocks welded by Team Seacats, on Flickr

I converted the welder with a gas pack after building these gates and MAN what a difference...so much easier to get a smooth arc (but it seems to give me more problems with thicker material - like it doesn't get as hot in this configuration). I haven't had much of a chance to play with it since the gas/solid wire conversion...but I am a hack.

 

[78Bird]

Nothing wrong with FC, in it's place.

Gotta run it hot enough for the flux to bubble up though, not really for thin sheet, to messy and hot.

If you are consistent and get the machine adjusted correctly, plus use good quality FC wire, you can get nice even beads that are revealed when you clean off the flux mess.

hardly pro, but this was flux welded... obviously, the mess was cleaned off

 

[88911coupe]

I have a HF 151(?) 220v and can do fine with thicker material using FC. I can't seem to stop burn through on thin metal/sheet metal even with low settings and slow wire speed. I've gotten good Lincoln wire (.030) (suggested on welding site) and that did no good either. I guess gas would be better on thin stuff, in particular for a crappy weldOR like me.

 

[hypnolobster]

The machine is irrelevant in this case, although nobody should be trying anything but sheet metal, exhaust, decorative stuff with a 110 machine. As long as it feeds wire consistently and there aren't any significant issues, any machine can make strong welds in the right hands.

A weld can look great but be weak, it can look awful (in some ways) but be strong, but in general a better looking more consistent weld is a marker that it's good. There's a reason that it's a lifetime of learning to become competent, and a reason there are trades devoted to just welding. Anybody who thinks they're done learning at any point is kidding themselves.

As for the welds in the OP, I see undercut, inconsistent lines, some really really terrible grinding skills and the thought that hammering something with a sledge is even remotely a viable test for weld strength on a trailer is laughable. Signs of overconfidence and not enough skill.

 

[IndyGarage]

After a quick google search, I guess the rods with the flux on the outside is considered "Shielded Metal Arc Welding". I guess that's the only kind of welding I've ever done. You can get a little Lincoln or Miller arc welder that's fairly cheap. At least I think you can. I haven't actually bought one, or welded anything, in decades.

Yes. There are about 4 common welding types available to small industrial or hobbyists.

MIG or Metal Inert Gas - which can use inert gas like Argon through the torch or can use a flux core wire that creates an inert gas from the heat. The wired comes in continuous rolls, so you can weld for a long time before changing the wire. Mig is the most common today because it's easy to weld with. Flux core units are cheap and can run on household current.

TIG or Tungsten Inert Gas - which uses inert gas through the torch and a fixed Tungsten electrode - the operator then feeds wire into the weld by hand - usually from 36 inch lengths of wire. Much less common, and takes more skill, but can be done with greater precision. Used a lot in aerospace and for intricate welds.

SMAW or Shielded Metal Arc Welding - more commonly known as stick welding. The Welding wire is coated with material that creates flux and inert gas at the weld puddle as it melts. Stick welders are good for outside work, and are used for heavy welding, such as shipyards and pipelines. Before mig machines were developed, Stick welding was much more common, but it takes a bit more skill than MIG.

Oxyacetalyne welding - or gas welding. Uses an acetalyne mixed with oxygen instead of electrical arc to create the heat. More versatile than the others, but maybe a little more dangerous, and certainly requires a moderate degree of skill.

 

[shocksandstrutz]

I'm pretty sure the pic of the square tubing that was being welded was for his "work bench" he built. I read through the original posts and it showed that pic and then a pic of the workbench finished. if there is a trailer he welded on r built with his welder, then pics of that whole item should be posted with specific areas in reference. hard to tell from just two pics.

i agree with everyone has to start somewhere and get practice in.

edit - just re read the first post and stated trailer pics arent included -

anyways, maybe those were his first welds with that machine and he got it "dialed in" after those

 

[dieselgarage]

We flux core 3/8 and up SS all the time and produce welds that easily pass USDA inspections. Where the confusion comes in. And people say all flux core welds ****.
Flux core is nothing more than the wire. You can as we do make beautiful welds with flux core wire if you also gas shield. If you run only flux core wire it's called self shielding. Then yes it can and most of the time does produce a very poor weld. So flux core is the wire not the welding process. The process would be shielded or self shielded.

 

[Zeke]

And you are running dual shield using both. Some wires are designed with that in mind.

 

[MoonRise]

My opinion of those welds, from a couple of pictures over the 'Net?

Iffy.

Suspect (iffy) fusion/penetration (several weld areas appear to be sitting on 'top' of the parent material and not melted/fused/welded into the parent material to achieve the desired welding Zen-state of Oneness).

Sloppy/uneven 'fill' of the welds into the gap/groove, leaving 'holes' in the joint with no weld bead in them.

End of the world for something static like a work bench? Probably not.

'Adequate' for a trailer that goes on the road? Probably not. On a trailer, if something breaks or goes wrong, it will probably be while the trailer is loaded and going down the road at speed. Which means that things would get 'bad' in an instant. NG.

re: flux core welds There is nothing necessarily inherently 'wrong' with using FCAW in the right application. And with adequate skill and the correct parameters.

In general, for the same diameter wire compared between FCAW-S and GMAW in short-circuit transfer mode (pretty much the only 'MIG' welding you can do with the 'little' wire-feed welders, where 'little' is any machine less than the 250-class machines that have the voltage and amperage ability to get into spray-transfer mode GMAW with the appropriate shielding gas(es)), the FCAW wire will run 'hotter' than the solid wire.

Has to do with the current-density flowing through the electrode.

Since the FCAW wire has a flux-core (duh ), the actual metal in the wire is the relatively thin 'shell' and all the welding current has to flow through that thin 'shell' and thus the metal runs a bit 'hotter' than the solid wire where the current can flow through the entire bit of solid wire (as well as the process difference with the arc and the polarity and so forth).

Hence the 'little' machines usually show the material thickness/parameter chart with the FCAW listed as letting you weld a little bit thicker than the GMAW.

But no matter what, just keep in mind the general welding rule-of-thumb: 1 amp per each 0.001" thickness of material you are trying to weld.

ex: welding some 1/8" thick steel (0.125" thick) = ~125 amps welding current

Also note: Lincoln NR211-MP FCAW wire has a stated MAX welded material workpiece thickness limit of 5/16" using wire sizes of 0.045" and smaller (all that you would/could use on the 'smaller' machines anyway). Directly from Lincoln's specs. NR211-MP wire in sizes of 0.068" and up have a MAX workpiece thickness of 1/2". NR-212 is rated at MAX workpiece thickness up to 3/4" (if your machine had enough amps to let you attempt to weld on a workpiece that thick).

re: Dual-Shield (FCAW-G) wires. Forget it for all the 'little' machines. NONE of the 'little' machines have the correct voltage/amperage outputs to run those type wires. Again, this falls under the RTFM reminder.

If you are using FCAW on a 'little' machine, it is an FCAW-S wire (Flux Core Arc Welding - SelfShielding). Do NOT go and run gas shielding when using an FCAW-S wire.

 

[diggerrick]

Opening a new thread since the other thread was going off topic. So harbor freight ($89 120 volt flux core) welders came up and welding pictures were posted. I thought they looked suspect, but the poster is adamant they're plenty strong for a trailer he welded up. "hammered the **** out of it with a 2 pound sledge and not a single weld broke". I was trying to warn him not to trust them on his trailer, but he's not having any of it. "2 years and it is still holding". Ok, but what about 5, 10, 20 years down the road?

Here are the examples of his welds that he posted (he didn't post any of the actual trailer).

So what say GJ? Regardless of the welder brand would you trust those welds on something critical like a trailer?

Why do you care so much about someone else's welding???

 

[kevin47]

...With good welding machine you can get beautiful flux-core welds...

 

[01ssreda4]

Opinions on welding are like "which oil is best" threads. Pointless to a degree. So forgive me if I don't read all that above.

I was a certified welder for several years, and have welded with a ton of different welders, stick, mig, and tig....and I've welded and own a HF unit. Let me tell you a little story. I had a guy that was interested in learning to weld and had been playing with his HF unit for exhaust stuff. I told him I'd come over and give him some pointers. After some beer drinking and telling him how crappy his welds looked some other guys challenged us to a "weld-off". It was a flange to pipe weld in a flat position. Single pass, super easy weld. I let him go first. It was mediocre at best. Then I went. It was interesting to me because it was my very first experience with a dirt cheap welder. I laid down the prettiest/strongest weld anyone could with this machine. My initial impressions of the welder were that it hesitates getting a puddle started. Then getting the machine to continue to flow smoothly and keep the puddle liquid is difficult too. The welder really makes/breaks the machine in this case. Fast forward months of me telling him to get a better welder I let him weld with my Lincoln 110 unit. This was his first experience using a decent welder. After playing with it for 5 minutes he decided to buy one. In two weeks he had sold the HF unit and bought the same model Lincoln for his personal use. I ended up purchasing a lightly used HF unit and keep it as a backup so that if I ever have any trouble out of the Lincoln in the middle of something I can finish and address it later.

The moral of this story is that the units are weak and inferior to their name brand competition. That does not mean they have no purpose in an average person's garage. I would suggest if you purchase one and plan on making good welds with it, then you have a good knowledge base and experience to pull from when using it. Of course those who take welding that seriously would probably spend the coin for a nicer unit. Kind of a double edged sword in that respect.

For those who say you cannot make good welds with flux core are spoiled on cleaner types of welding. I've been using flux at the house exclusively for years and never have an issue with it. You can make beautiful welds if you have the experience, for an average DYIer, I'd venture to say their welds won't look good, but that's the welder not the machine.

For those who think you cannot make strong welds with a 110v machine.....well please see the above paragraph. For a 110v machine to run cleanly at full power you MUST have a dedicated circuit. A standard breaker/wiring in a home with be a sub-standard as soon as you turn the 110v welder to 100% output. Also, design and material selection is critical in joint strength. Knowing what you can and can't do with your 110v machine is crucial to being an effective welder. Doing things like beveling edges and properly penetrating them, adding plug welds, adding additional bracing etc can take a joint and multiply its strength exponentially. And as a final example to the strength of 110v machines. I once welded an under bumper trailer hitch receiver to a frame of an SUV (flat position 3 pass weld on 3/16th plate with 4 plugs for additional strength) Same basic design as some aftermarket units though those used u bolts or something to secure it to the frame rail. I saw that SUV and trailer get loaded via forklift with 7k pounds. Pushing pallets with the forklift onto the trailer literally drug the SUV across the parking lot. That SUV then pulled all 9k home without issue. The only thing holding that receiver to that truck was a 110v weld.