Propane cylinders questions

[bobs4092]

I was wondering if it's legal to transport a 100lb propane cylinder by pickup truck to get filled? I'm in Pennsylvania if that matters. Need to know before I buy one.

I heard it's much cheaper to get a cylinder filled than to have a company come to your house and fill it or to use one of their tanks that they exchange. (then your stuck with that same company I guess)

I am planning on heating my garage with radiant floor heat with some type of a propane heater as there is no natural gas service where I live.


Thanks,


Bob

 

[deadwood_den]

Hi, Bob

What do you use to heat the home with?

Don't know about your area, But my propane dealer just set a 120 GAL. tank for free
We only pay $1.69 a gal (that's on a prepay, we do in August) we heat the house w/propane also, Salesman said they charge others (low useage customers) $100 a yr. rental on there tank. ( buying your own cost right around $450)
Last time I had a 20lb tank filled was a couple years ago, cost $12 compared with $43 they just charged me for the 25 gals in the tank when they brought it out. Not sure how many gals in a 20lb tank
as far as hauling a 100lb tank, should be ok, but ask yourself ?what's the cost to drive to get it filled,how often, cost of propane vs delivery
One other thing, Don't know what your BTU needs are, But I've read here and else where that a 100lb tank wouldn't supply enough pressure/fuel for anything over a few thousand btu

Dennis

Here's some more info
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7181

 

[5wndwcpe]

I don't know how big your radiant heat system is, but I think you'll blow through that 100 lb. bottle in no time. Call the dealers in your area and see what they'll do for you. Sometimes they charge a service fee if your usage isn't high enough, but it may still beat lugging that bottle back and forth. As an aside, with radiant heat, you need to leave the thermostat set a predetermined point so the slab doesn't get too cool. If you deplete that 100lb. bottle and can't get it filled right away, you'll have to heat that big rock of a floor all over again, using up alot of your newly purchased propane. A vicious cycle for sure.

 

[Franz©]

First, do a little math and determine yur consumption. Then determine if a 100# transport cylinder can deliver sufficient vapor.

IF a single 100 will serve your need check with supliers in the area for fill pricing. 100s are rapidly becoming obsolete other than liquid delivery cylinders.
The 100# tank is the largest that can be transported full, and it must be recertified every 10 years. Most supliers figure the cost of filling a 100# is the same as filling a 20# bbq tank, so unless they like you they charge an arm & leg.

If your need is over capacity of what a 100 will deliver, look into a 100 GALLON tank. I highly recommend owning your own cylinder, so you can bid supliers against one another for price. Remember the tank costs money, and that cost is built into every gallon of propane pumped into it.

In the event you live in an area formerly served by Level Propane you may be able to find a 100 gal cylinder laying beside the road or being offered for sale cheap. Just peal the Level label off and put a coat of paint on before calling supliers.

 

[bobs4092]

deadwood_den:

The house is heated using oil. I will certainly check on the cost to have a supplier bring the the propane tank as you suggested. Wish I had natural gas available to avoid all of this but we're lucky just to have electricity where I live here in the coal regions of Pa. LOL Thanks,

5wndwcpe: All I have is the tubing in the floor for now. Garage is 28X26. I *think* I'll be using a water heater to heat the slab to a constant 45-50 and was thinking of later adding a wall mounted forced air type of heater for quick warm ups. I'm still in the beginning stages so really don't know much about this yet. Thanks.

Franz©: I still have to check the cost of filling one of these but was told it's alot cheaper doing it this way. I can get a 100# cylinder for under $100.

I didn't realize this might not be big enough to operate a heater. Bummer if that's true.

My only other option other than propane would be electricity but I have a bad feeling about that. (cost wise)


Well, the research continues.... I appreciate the help.


Bob

 

[cork]

As far as I know it is legal to haul a 100lb propane tank in PA. You are supposed to haul them upright and have a plug in the valve. I haul them all the time in the winter. I pay around $80.00 to have my 100lb tanks filled. I never compared the price to renting/buying a larger tank and having a company fill the tank. I did not want a large propane truck using my driveway. I am currently using propane for my 75,000 btu hot dawg, but like you I also have radiant in the floor but not yet attached to a heat source.

 

[SteveU]

There is a screw on cap that is required to transport them in Michigan, looks like the ones you see on acetalene tanks. Purpose of these is to keep the valve from breaking off & starting a fire if it is dropped or falls over. They are also required to be transported standing upright secured so that they won't fall over. Used to work for a propane co delivering these years ago. The other guys are right about getting a better price per gallon with the bigger tanks, if you are going to run it much you should check into a 120 gal tank at least. People with 500 gal tanks were getting their gas for something like a dollar per gallon less than what the cylinder customers with the 100 lb tanks were paying. If you buy your own tank you can price shop but if you use their tank noone else will fill it which may be a consideration.

 

[fireman]

One consideration is that if you buy a tank, it's only good for 10 years. Then it has to be hydro. testing every 5 years. Testing costs are quite expensive. It would be cheaper to buy a new tank. I rent a 120 gal. tank from the propane co. for $50 a year. The cost to buy one is $500. If I bought one, I would have to buy another one in 10 years. Now all I have to do is tell them to bring me another tank for free in 10 years.

 

[BillK]

deadwood_den:

The house is heated using oil. Bob

Bob,
If you have not already purchased a Propane boiler for the garage, why not just use oil and have the oil delivery guy do both tanks at once ? Not sure about your area but around here Propane is over $3 a gallon right now. Oil might be the cheaper way to go.

I must be getting old ..... there is no way I would be lugging a 100lb propane tank around just to save a few bucks.

 

[Franz©]

OK, lets try it this way.
There are 2 classes of propane tanks.
One class the standard nomenclatured 100 pound cylinder is TRANSPORTABLE full of propane by anyone. It MUST have valve protection, be that a collar or a cap. This size and smaller sizes of cylinders are required to be certified every 10 years ONLY if they are transported over public highways with gas in the tank.

The second class is the nontransportable tank with capacity of over 100pounds of propane. They are certified when built, and placed in a permanent location. This size cannot be hauled over public highways with more than 10% of the tank's capacity of "gas" inside the tank. Regulation of this tank is totally different from the 100 pound and smaller transportable tank. Once set at a location this size tank requires no further inspection by any authority!

Propane tanks are NOT high pressure cylinders, and the retest on a transportable 100 pound and smaller tank does NOT require hydro unless you live in some damn People's Rebublikk. The testing mandated is a Federal requirement.

In Pa, the only place I'm aware of a hauling problem for any propane cylinder is the tunnel on the Northeast Extension, and if Trooper Buford really wants your *** he can ticket you for illegal propane hauling there for a couple spraycans of paint.

 

[fireman]

Franz

I don't know where you got your info. but in the USA, propane tanks are governed by the DOT, ASME and the NFPA. Propane tanks are tested to 250 PSI. If they have a manufacture date exceeding 10 years, it is illegal to fill them.

 

[Franz©]

You know, I could sit here and site myriad examples easily proving fireman hasn't a clue what he's talking about, and that he completely lacks the ability to understand the difference between a transport cylinder and a stationary cylinder but I just ain't gonna bother.
Obviously he's a FIREMAN, and he rides on a big red truck with flashing lights and a siren so he knows everything.
Were I to point out what I think of his knowledge base I might be considered impolite. I don't want to be impolite, so I shan't say anything about people who ride on big red trucks with flashing lights and do exactly as they are told.

 

[mhoffm911]

Best information here:

http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=477

From their website: (National Propane Gas Association)

The most frequently used regulations are state and local safety codes. Each U.S. state and most local governments have a special set of fire prevention and operational safety codes that apply to propane operations.

State and local codes may be enforced by different types of agencies, including but not limited to state propane commissions or agencies, state fire marshal offices, state department of transportation, or public safety commissions.

 

[mhoffm911]

More here:

http://www.cganet.com/
http://www.propanesafety.com/Pages/default.aspx

 

[Franz©]

AND if you want to know how NFPA mandates setting tanks up
http://www.volusia.org/permitcenter/pdf/LP location.pdf

AND for residents of the Commonwealth of Pa
http://www.volusia.org/permitcenter/pdf/LP location.pdf

AND if you're a very confused member of the National Propane Gas Association trying to figure out if the waiver to haul loaded tanks in excess of 100 gal water capactiy you should really be talking to NPFA.

AND for NY residents, all propane is now regulated by Dept of Agriculture

AND don't forget to talk to Homeland Security since they seem pretty certain they too now regulate propane because it can go bang under certain circumstances.

 

[BillK]

Bob,
Did some quick research.

Propane has about 91,500 BTU per gallon. Your 100lb tank will hold "about" 25 gallons.

Fuel oil has about 138,690 BTU per gallon.

So you need to see how much the propane is going to cost you per gallon Then compare it to your cost per gallon for oil, and remember that the oil is going to have almost 50% more heat per gallon, depending on efficiency of your furnace or boiler.

Even if oil is as much per gallon as the propane, it will still be cheaper because of its heat capacity. Plus you already are getting oil delivery so the guy can just fill both tanks at one time.

 

[Franz©]

This'll save you a lot of cypherin
http://hearth.com/fuelcalc/findoil.html

 

[bobs4092]

Thanks guys.

Oil is very expensive so not sure about going that way. Unless I could find a small used furnace, I would go with a propane hot water heater for the floor heat. New furnace's are way too expensive for my needs.

Would like to get a wall mounted heater for quick warm ups when I'm in there. Those would only be natural gas or propane from what I've seen. That's another reason why I wanted to go with propane.

I'll have to price around and see what I can find.



Bob