Propane Generator users, a moment please?

[joseywales]

I have a brand new Champion 8000W duel fuel generator that I only use with propane. New in March. Long way around the barn here, but I'm providing some background, leading to the question, which you can skip to at the end:

Fired it up in June, but it was a PITA to start. Using a regular BBQ grill tank. Finally, I disconnected the hose. Reconnected it and SLOWLY turned on the hose valve at the tank. BINGO! fired it up several times, consistently, just to test and let it run for 5 hours, powering our fridge, freezer, neighbor's fridge, etc.
Ok, so it needs a bit of a bleed, so the pressure is good to start. Fine. Even read online where guys recommend the same slow process. Fine.
Lost power again the other day, took a few clicks with the electric start, but it fired up an ran 5 hours, until the propane ran out (was not a full propane tank. Might have been the one I used on the first 5 hours). Anyway, I decide to change the oil. Now it won't start. Removed all electrical load, even disconnected the cords in case there's a mechanical shutoff when they're in place.
Turns over, even chugs a bit, then craps out.

- It feels like a fuel issue (Supply, choke, etc.). Or perhaps a shutoff - like the unit isn't level (not the issue) or, perhaps the oil pressure switch. It detects if pressure is low and shuts off the unit.
- Oil is filled and this hard start issue was in play when new, so either that switch was acting up as new, or another issue.
- Company is sending me a new tank hose (go from tank to the generator), which has the regulator. This is based solely by my description of the problem via email. Their phone tech support is swamped.

Is it possible/likely, that the generator ran the tank empty, so fuel was getting through, then wouldn't restart because something inside the regulator is now restricted? It just seems odd that it was letting fuel through fine, until the point where it ran out of fuel, then suddenly won't allow enough pressure. I've tried several tanks, with the same result.

I'm tempted to swap a BBQ grill hose/regulator, but the regulators look and are likely different? I'm thinking it's actually the oil shutoff switch, or something else.

 

[carnutdallas]

Oil shut off switch [emoji2369]

First thought. Easy test, are you getting spark?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[firebirdparts]

I suspect the oil pressure switch grounds the mag, so you should be able to just check that directly without any effort. I know you probably have electric start, but I am just imagining myself pulling the rope on a 15 hp engine with the fuel off and the ignition off. that's the sort of thing you don't forget for a while.

 

[joseywales]

Getting spark, because it actually run/chugs a bit then shuts off.
How can i test that pressure switch? Scratch that, I just disconnected it. We'll see

 

[joseywales]

Hmm. Disconnected the oil switch, and tank hose. reconnected the hose and tried again.
Same result. Just some chugging, maybe runs for a second or two, then a backfire.
I was not aware that smaller tanks have a shut off as well, if flow is too great, so I'm only turning the valve 3/4 trying it, then ta 1/4 more to a full 360.

 

[dcg9381]

I have the smaller version of that setup. As others have mentioned the oil switch controls spark - so if you've got spark, it's not that switch.
Can you smell propane at the regulator? Seems like you've had regulator / bleed issues.

The choke lever is pretty easy to see on mine.

What I'd do is put some gasoline in it and see if it fires. As I'm sure you know, mine has a setting / drop bar that controls gas or propane. If it runs on gas, you know your issue is likely in that propane regulator. Just drain the carb after running on gas. Not the tank. Drain the bowl.


BTW, mine had a pretty decent amount of break in metal after the break in period.. Definitely change the oil!

 

[joseywales]

I have the smaller version of that setup. As others have mentioned the oil switch controls spark - so if you've got spark, it's not that switch.
Can you smell propane at the regulator? Seems like you've had regulator / bleed issues.

The choke lever is pretty easy to see on mine.

What I'd do is put some gasoline in it and see if it fires. As I'm sure you know, mine has a setting / drop bar that controls gas or propane. If it runs on gas, you know your issue is likely in that propane regulator. Just drain the carb after running on gas. Not the tank. Drain the bowl.


BTW, mine had a pretty decent amount of break in metal after the break in period.. Definitely change the oil!

Thanks. Yeah, it was perfectly planned. Ran it for 5 hours, with half load during the first outage. then, change the oil. Procrastinated, 2 months, next outage. Run for about 4 hours, until the tank ran out. 10:30PM and I'm thinking, I have to change out that oil. Do I just did it then. Hated to do it, thinking, "don't mess with it during an outage," But what the heck, it's one bolt!

I did change it, and didn't see any shavings at all. Makes me wonder if this is truly a new unit, but it had zero odor when I opened it.

 

[dcg9381]

I didn't see shavings, it was more like metal flake if you shined light in there... You can't even feel them.

Let us know if you try running it on gas.

 

[joseywales]

I didn't see shavings, it was more like metal flake if you shined light in there... You can't even feel them.

Let us know if you try running it on gas.

I still have the pan I drained it into and even ran a light over it, but don't see anything. I really hate to run it on gas, but might have to try it. Heck, I need to drive and get clean gas for the can. I just don't run much on gas these days

 

[aandpdan]

I've been running a propane generator for years.

Yes, newer tanks have an "excess flow regulator." You have to slowly turn the valve on or you'll trip it.

Have you tried another tank? Was the tank properly purged before use?

 

[joseywales]

I've been running a propane generator for years.

Yes, newer tanks have an "excess flow regulator." You have to slowly turn the valve on or you'll trip it.

Have you tried another tank? Was the tank properly purged before use?

Thanks. I've tried 3 tanks so far. What do you mean by purging the tank?

 

[nadogail]

Thanks for sharing

 

[Jackfre]

Your LP problem may be to small a tank. What is the rated propane flow of the generator and what type regulator do you have on the system.

 

[Dave Carney]

Your LP problem may be to small a tank. What is the rated propane flow of the generator and what type regulator do you have on the system.

Agreed! I'd just about bet on it. I'm amazed it ever ran on that small tank.
Mine is a 15kw Generac, so quite a bit bigger, but still, I ran 1.25" underground gas line and it's fed from a 500 gallon tank that also supplies the house on a separate underground line.

Run it on gasoline and see what happens. You won't hurt it.

 

[joseywales]

You guys are killing me! haha... The last piece I have that runs on gas is my 9HP snow thrower. The only gas I like is for cooking and heating! Champion is sending a new hose/regulator, their suggestion, not mine. In fact, I've yet to talk to anyone. Just emails.

I thought about the tank size, but man it ran great when it was running.

Regarding tank size, I always thought that BBQ tanks were 20 pounds, but the 20 pounds tanks are actually marked 15lbs. The manual does read 20 or 30 lb tanks recommended, so do they mean 20 pounders that are marked 15?. I told Champion tech support that I was using a 15lb BBQ style tank. I wonder if they're sending a different regulator, to accommodate these more common tanks.

I don't see any flow rate in the manual, but will read through it again.

 

[PCustoms]

Thanks for sharing

Nadogail, do you ever post anything constructive? Most of what I see from you (daily!) Is some variation of the above

 

[aandpdan]

What do you mean by purging the tank?

New tanks "usually" come purged - as in a vacuum drawn to remove the air. It can take several fill/empty cycles to eliminate the air if it wasn't purged properly.

Do you have a primer button on the demand regulator? Can you hear a "hiss" when priming?

 

[joseywales]

New tanks "usually" come purged - as in a vacuum drawn to remove the air. It can take several fill/empty cycles to eliminate the air if it wasn't purged properly.

Do you have a primer button on the demand regulator? Can you hear a "hiss" when priming?

It kills me that these don't have a primer button! I'm really curious to see what replacement they send me and am hoping to see either a different regulator, or some type of purge ability. If the SHTF, I'll resort to gasoline. But at this point, I'd rather ride it out, then find a tri-fuel to hook up to my NG, then move this one along. I think the unit is fine (obviously I'll confirm that), but will advise any buyer that it requires a larger tank to LP. Probably easier to sell without the smell of gasoline.

 

[merlin1952]

Josey, I have a Champion dual fuel 9375/7500 generator I bought new October 2018 that I just ran for about 3 hours on Tuesday after the storm came through Eastern North Carolina. It started right up and ran the 3 hours on a 20 lbs BBQ type propane tank. This week was the longest I’ve ever run it since new but I have only ever ran it on a 20 lbs tank and it’s never failed to start and run properly during my periodic test runs. Once you get this issue resolved I feel sure you will like your propane generator I have never had any issues with mine and am very happy with it. Good luck!

 

[Firstram]

If you are using exchange BBQ tanks they only put 15lbs in the 20lb tanks. Have them refilled so have the extra run time on hand, it's usually cheaper too.

 

[joseywales]

Champion has thrown in the towel. The tech support and I were able to get it running, but it took forever, and wasn't consistent. They sent me a new LP hose, with new regulator, and it's still a no-go.

Runs, chugs, mild backfire. Now he's thinking valves, so I have to haul this new generator off to a service facility. They don't pick up.

I guess as a worksite generator guys start these all the time. But they only have so any cranks in them and I've already used up a lifetime's worth of starts trying to get this thing running. Do I really want to trust it in an emergency?

I could buy in to the 15lb vs 20lb tanks. but this thing started with a half empty tank and ran like a champ. Not that these generators can't be finicky, but even the tech felt this goes beyond that.

 

[merlin1952]

Josey, I believe I would let them repair it, if they can, and then I'd run it regularly for some weeks after that to see if it acts up again. Then depending on how it performed during the regular test runs I would either have restored confidence in it or either contact Champion again if things didn’t go well. If they failed to get it repaired a second time I would contact Champion about a full replacement and failing at that just get rid of it and try again with a different generator, maybe a Generac. Just my thoughts, hope it helps.

 

[joseywales]

Josey, I believe I would let them repair it, if they can, and then I'd run it regularly for some weeks after that to see if it acts up again. Then depending on how it performed during the regular test runs I would either have restored confidence in it or either contact Champion again if things didn’t go well. If they failed to get it repaired a second time I would contact Champion about a full replacement and failing at that just get rid of it and try again with a different generator, maybe a Generac. Just my thoughts, hope it helps.

That's about where I'm at. I might even try for a replacement now, though I'm sure they have none at this point. COSTCO has a Firman unit that does Gas/LP/NG. I really like that NG option.

I've been leaning toward a permanent house unit for a while and this experience might just be the catalyst.

 

[joseywales]

Sooo...A lot has happened. Champion said take the generator to a service center for warranty service, but lifting it into the truck, etc. isn't a real option. Then, I tore my calf, so that's been fun for 9 weeks.

I spoke with Champion again today and they shipped me a new carburetor to install myself. His thought was the a diaphragm was likely bad. Hopefully I can bang that out tomorrow.

 

[joseywales]

Aaand...nothing. I replaced the carb. It actually have a more definitive choke setting, but in the end, it did the same thing. Wanna start, but not.

I'll call a service center number they provided. Hopefully they'll pick it up, because my leg hurts just from kneeling and monkeying round the unit.

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks for the update. Can you use a dolly and get it on a little cargo trailer (perhaps with a ramp). Sorry no one is there to lend a hand..

 

[finn]

You really need to get back to the basics, or have the service center do it..

Does it have compression? Tight valve lash will keep the valves from seating, and it won’t run.

Spark? I had trouble with the oil level sensor on one of my Champions. Disconnecting the sensor fixed it, but not before I misdiagnosed the no spark issue as a bad plug.

Fuel? Try the gasoline trick. If it starts and runs, you know where to look.....

Throwing parts at it is a crapshoot, and expensive. In my case, at least I have an extra plug now...

 

[theoldwizard1]

I was watching a YouTube video about a guy with an almost new Kohler 8kw propane generator that quit. He finally figured out it was not getting fuel. At first he thaought it was the regulator, but then found out that the regulator had both an electrical shutoff (safety) and a vacuum shutoff (safety). Perhaps I should say, vacuum was required to turn the regulator ON !

Turns out the carburetor had vibrated loose and there was inadequate vacuum to open the regulator. I sur hope he used some blue thread locker when he tightened it up !

 

[joseywales]

You really need to get back to the basics, or have the service center do it..

Does it have compression? Tight valve lash will keep the valves from seating, and it won’t run.

Spark? I had trouble with the oil level sensor on one of my Champions. Disconnecting the sensor fixed it, but not before I misdiagnosed the no spark issue as a bad plug.

Fuel? Try the gasoline trick. If it starts and runs, you know where to look.....

Throwing parts at it is a crapshoot, and expensive. In my case, at least I have an extra plug now...

We aren't exactly throwing parts at it. Spent about 2 hours on 2 different calls with their technician:

- Initially, it would start and run, but very roughly
- we did swap out propane tanks, several times
- we swapped out the hose/regulator
- disconnected the oil level sensor (i wish I'd left it disconnected it this last time. I might try that today,)
- After 90 minutes on the last call, we got it running, but again, very rough and the voltage and hertz figures were random or below what's required (240-244, 60-63 required).

In speaking with another person at Champion and explaining that hauling this back isn't an option, and him having been through this same scenario before with this unit, see sent me a carburetor.

These units aren't fans of the BBQ sized tanks - Champion say 20lb, but technically these are 15.5 pounds. 2 tanks worked, others don't seem to now. Could be another issue, but if I hat to spend $70 on a 40lb tank just to test this.

If the service center won't transport for reasonable fee, I might just rent a small trailer, etc. and haul there myself.

 

[510ebl]

If the service center won't transport for reasonable fee, I might just rent a small trailer, etc. and haul there myself.

A pickup truck rental or Uber might be priced competitively, depending on market/distance.

 

[joseywales]

A pickup truck rental or Uber might be priced competitively, depending on market/distance.

Thanks. I have a pickup, but lifting this thing is no picnic. The torn calf doesn't hep matters. It's mostly healed, but kneeling and rolling around replacing the carburetor aggravated it. Small Uhaul trailer is $24, so not horrible. I have a ramp and could easily roll this up onto the trailer with a neighbor.

 

[zeke67]

Chokes and primer bulls aren't needed on propane. Don't use the choke. Propane doesn't need help atomizing on cold start. There should be a bleed valve on the regulator. Bleed for a second or couple of short seconds. Check the regulator of cob webs or mud daubers. 20 LB prone cylinders can hold 20 LB. They get filled to 15 LB to keep the prices low. The exchange stores (Big Box orange / blue) short fill as price point advertising. If you have a mostly full tank it will work. If you are concerned, get a 50 LB tank. Not a bad idea anyway as it will give you more run time.

If it's fairly new (sounds like it is) and has a new carb, hose, and regulator (it does) and is chugging and backfiring, likely you have an ignition issue. A spark plug won't foul on propane, the plug wire is likely good but inspect for abrasion. It could very well be the magneto. Having said that, have you had the carb off, and if so, did you get the linkage to the governor put back correctly? If you ran gasoline in it and it sat in the tank afterward, you could have a plugged emulsion tube behind (above) the carb jet -- which for sure will cause surging.

For reference / credibility, I have a Honda GX on my fire suppression system. Dual fuel, but I only run it on propane. I have a 50 LB tank for emergency (i.e.a wild fire) but I prime it and exercise it on 20 LB tanks. It sits in the woods under a plastic lid, terrible conditions for an engine. The ground is mostly level. I don't use the choke. Zero issues. My Cat Home & Outdoor Power portable home generator, similar to the GX design, runs on gasoline. It's run hard during long hour power outages. Surging, it was the emulsion tube. Carb looked good when I pulled the bowl, but had to pull the jet and emulsion tube to clear it. (This emulsion tube thing is a gasoline issue.)

 

[Viz]

While there can be many sources of the erratic running issue, I recently had a similar one on my gas pressure washer. Ran fine for hours, after a long storage spell, then started coughing, sputtering, then quit. Restarting was erratic, then same issues, then wouldn't start.

Going back to the simple things first, I checked the air filter. The foam element was partly disintegrated (Florida heat), fell apart, and blocked the air flow down to the carb.

Might not be your issue, but worth a look if the air cleaner wasn't opened up and already inspected during the carb change.

Viz

 

[justsam]

I would not dismiss the engine valve issue. I had a Honda Generator that one of the valves, don't recall intake or exhaust, lost it's retainer, and it was just flopping around, getting kicked by the cam but of course no valve spring action. The engine would actually start and run up to perhaps 1200 RPM, making a little noise, not making much power, but it did run.