Propane heater pilot light blowing out

[Joerg]

I installed a 30,000 btu wall-mounted propane heater in my well insulated 1,500 sq ft. garage. Overnight I want it to keep temps in the 40's with outside temps around and below teens. Elevation is about 4,800ft. I set the thermostat dial to about 45 degrees. Works great, but in cold nights the pilot light sort of blows out. This link shows a video:

Pilot is on... I turn the thermostat up and heater comes on (at this point notice how the pilot flame changes, moving away from the jet)... I turn thermostat back down and heater turns off... pilot flame still looks wrong and eventually heat sensor turns the pilot off because it "thinks" the flame is out.

Anyone ran into this? Suggestions how to remedy this? Much appreciated!

 

[BillK]

Almost looks like the gas pressure is too high. Is it a new heater ? Did you have the gas valve adjusted when you installed it ? They are supposed to come preset but you never know.

There should be two adjustments, one for the pilot and one for the main burner.

 

[fitter30]

Call the manufacturer there might be some adjustments to make since the air is thinner. Brand and model #

 

[ez-duzit]

Make certain that the thermocouple connection is clean and tight.

 

[Jackfre]

ODS pilots are not adjustable. They are your primary safety so no messing with it. Supply pressure setting is high for 4800’. You need to check the manual for proper setting. Some vent free units do not do well at elevation for the reason you are seeing. When speaking with the manuf ask them about the suggested process for cleaning the ODS pilot. If that is a Sordione pilot careful with how much air pressure you hit it with.

 

[Joerg]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. The heater is a DynaGlo "Signature Series" Model BFSS30LPT-4P. I bought it brand new and it is the first winter I am using it. There does not appear to be any adjustment for either the pilot or the main burner. But BIIIK was right: The gas pressure is too high. I closed the propane shut-off to about 20% open and that seems to have (temporarily) fixed the issue.

I will try to contact the manufacturer and if they can't help check with my propane company. They have been very helpful in the past. Perhaps they can install an inline pressure reducer. Thanks again for all your help!

 

[BillK]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. The heater is a DynaGlo "Signature Series" Model BFSS30LPT-4P. I bought it brand new and it is the first winter I am using it. There does not appear to be any adjustment for either the pilot or the main burner. But BIIIK was right: The gas pressure is too high. I closed the propane shut-off to about 20% open and that seems to have (temporarily) fixed the issue.

I will try to contact the manufacturer and if they can't help check with my propane company. They have been very helpful in the past. Perhaps they can install an inline pressure reducer. Thanks again for all your help!

I would probably call the propane company first. They should have a regulator on the tank that controls the pressure. What do the installation instructions say ? I couldnt find them on the Dynaglow web site.

 

[Joerg]

Yes, there is a pressure regulator at the tank. From there it tee's to the garage and to the house. House heat etc has been working fine for years, but the tee to the garage is new. Heater instructions don't say anything about adjustment, and I read somewhere that they are rated to 4,500ft elevation. So I am slightly out of specs at 4,800ft. No word back yet from customer support. Will call the propane folks tomorrow. Thank you again for getting me on the right track!

 

[Jackfre]

Understand that you are asking the gas company to adjust gas pressure to do nothing but operate your heater outside of it specified “safe” range. They may do it, but don’t be surprised if they say nothing doing. They assume all the liability should ANYTHING go wrong with you or the property. No up side for them. If you experience on going problems and choose to look elsewhere, especially with vent free, check out the Empire or Rinnai vent frees. I just checked the specs on the Rinnai 824 and it is ok up to 5400.’ Ah, the joys of living at altitude, eh?

 

[Joerg]

Understand that you are asking the gas company to adjust gas pressure to do nothing but operate your heater outside of it specified “safe” range. They may do it, but don’t be surprised if they say nothing doing. They assume all the liability should ANYTHING go wrong with you or the property. No up side for them. If you experience on going problems and choose to look elsewhere, especially with vent free, check out the Empire or Rinnai vent frees. I just checked the specs on the Rinnai 824 and it is ok up to 5400.’ Ah, the joys of living at altitude, eh?

Thank you, I will look at the models you mentioned. Certainly would not trade the location for anything!

 

[4x4Pete]

The video makes it look like a regulator or gas valve problem, something is overpressurizing the pilot. The pilot flame is stable before the main burner comes on. Then once the main burner shuts down the pilot goes high pressure. Similar to a regulator not locking up at pressure.

 

[Firebrick43]

Yes, there is a pressure regulator at the tank. From there it tee's to the garage and to the house. House heat etc has been working fine for years, but the tee to the garage is new. Heater instructions don't say anything about adjustment, and I read somewhere that they are rated to 4,500ft elevation. So I am slightly out of specs at 4,800ft. No word back yet from customer support. Will call the propane folks tomorrow. Thank you again for getting me on the right track!

Is there a second regulator at the garage? The one at the tank lowers it to 10psi and the second regulator lowers it to 11” of water column or about 3/4 of a psi.

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. The heater is a DynaGlo "Signature Series" Model BFSS30LPT-4P. I bought it brand new and it is the first winter I am using it. There does not appear to be any adjustment for either the pilot or the main burner. But BIIIK was right: The gas pressure is too high. I closed the propane shut-off to about 20% open and that seems to have (temporarily) fixed the issue.

There is an adjustment on the back of dynaglo heaters. There are two positions of the pilot assembly. There is a little cover that needs to be removed and a selector switch that is turned to natural gas or lp position and cover reinstalled. If you have it set to NG it will act like you are experiencing. Also there is two inlet positions, again one for LP and one for NG. It should be in the LP inlet and other one plugged.

 

[duneslider]

I have a mr buddy heater that has always had issues like this. It was especially problematic at high elevations (9-10k) but I don't use it in those situations very often but even at my house at 4700ish feet it shuts off like this. I found that if I put something in the pilots flow it seems to diffuse it enough to work. No idea if this is a bad idea or not but its been working for a lot of years now. I only use this occasionally in the garage. In my case I used a piece of 14g copper wire that is wrapped around the grill and just lays over the top of the pilot outlet. It is 100% reliable for me this way.

In my case, mr buddy was zero help with the issue and I received the heater as a gift and by the time I used the heater it was out of any warranty/return window.

 

[Jackfre]

I think the problem is actually not a “problem” per se with either the gas set-up or the heater. ODS pilots are very precise instruments. They are the primary safety on a vent free unit and have to work on a very very tight spec. O2 is 20.9% at sea level. Atmospheric pressure drops/air is less dense at altitude. The video shows gas being supplied correctly but not igniting until the gas has feathered off the pilot. That is exactly how an ODS provides it proper operation. For training purposes I used to have a small box with an ODS pilot inside. With the side off the box I’d light the pilot. The pilot flame would bathe the thermocouple giving the MV to pull in the main burner gas. I’d then slide the plexiglas side into place and we would watch the pilot flame as the O2 was reduced and the flame would feather off the pilot assembly and off the thermocouple, cooling it and causing it to drop out, exactly as designed. ODS pilots are not adjustable, period. Nor should they be tampered with. Duneslider, you may have been able to game the pilot to get heat, but you are running on the Darwin Spectrum. You should throw a CO detector in the box with the heater if you continue to operate this thing as you describe.

 

[duneslider]

I think the problem is actually not a “problem” per se with either the gas set-up or the heater. ODS pilots are very precise instruments. They are the primary safety on a vent free unit and have to work on a very very tight spec. O2 is 20.9% at sea level. Atmospheric pressure drops/air is less dense at altitude. The video shows gas being supplied correctly but not igniting until the gas has feathered off the pilot. That is exactly how an ODS provides it proper operation. For training purposes I used to have a small box with an ODS pilot inside. With the side off the box I’d light the pilot. The pilot flame would bathe the thermocouple giving the MV to pull in the main burner gas. I’d then slide the plexiglas side into place and we would watch the pilot flame as the O2 was reduced and the flame would feather off the pilot assembly and off the thermocouple, cooling it and causing it to drop out, exactly as designed. ODS pilots are not adjustable, period. Nor should they be tampered with. Duneslider, you may have been able to game the pilot to get heat, but you are running on the Darwin Spectrum. You should throw a CO detector in the box with the heater if you continue to operate this thing as you describe.

I honestly haven't used it in 4-5 years, just no need for it anymore and I will probably toss it. But I am curious why it would be any more dangerous doing what I am doing vs not? I mostly have used it in areas I would not consider enclosed, the few times I did use it in the garage I do have a CO detector in there. Even with the little wire, it still shuts off if tipped over, or even bumped to hard and usually shuts off if I pick it up and move it.

Really, I am just curious why it would be more dangerous this way? It seems like a pressure thing to me, half empty bottles seem to not be as temperamental with staying lit.

 

[Joerg]

Is there a second regulator at the garage? The one at the tank lowers it to 10psi and the second regulator lowers it to 11” of water column or about 3/4 of a psi.


There is an adjustment on the back of dynaglo heaters. There are two positions of the pilot assembly. There is a little cover that needs to be removed and a selector switch that is turned to natural gas or lp position and cover reinstalled. If you have it set to NG it will act like you are experiencing. Also there is two inlet positions, again one for LP and one for NG. It should be in the LP inlet and other one plugged.

The heater is correctly set to LP and I believe it has a secondary pressure regulator built in. It works fine in warmer temps. Looks like I am borderline out of specs at my altitude and the slight drop in O2 levels in cold weather is enough to be out of specs. Still waiting to hear back from the manufacturer. The propane folks are probably my best bet. Or get a heater that is rated for my altitude as someone suggested. Live and learn...

 

[Firebrick43]

The heater is correctly set to LP and I believe it has a secondary pressure regulator built in.

They do NOT have the secondary regulator built in. You MUST have a secondary stage regulator to drop the 10psi from the first stage to the 11" water column call out by the manufactures. Its is listed several places that no more than 14" of water column pressure can be inputted to the wall heater.

 

[American Locomotive]

My buddy had the "Mr. Heater" version of that heater, and had the exact same problem when using the wrong regulator with too much gas pressure. He switched to the regulator that came with the unit, and the issue went away. You can also tell there's an issue based on how uneven the main burner flame is.

It's possible you might need a lower gas pressure than normal since your elevation is so high?

 

[Jackfre]

I honestly haven't used it in 4-5 years, just no need for it anymore and I will probably toss it. But I am curious why it would be any more dangerous doing what I am doing vs not? I mostly have used it in areas I would not consider enclosed, the few times I did use it in the garage I do have a CO detector in there. Even with the little wire, it still shuts off if tipped over, or even bumped to hard and usually shuts off if I pick it up and move it.

Really, I am just curious why it would be more dangerous this way? It seems like a pressure thing to me, half empty bottles seem to not be as temperamental with stay

The danger is that you loose the only protection that type heater offers. As you say, you have used it in an unconfined space with good ventilation, but what happens if you find yourself in a small shed using it for heat for a couple hrs. You potentially become a statistic. I hate to beat that drum, but it really happens. That is the danger.
ODS pilots are designed to drop units out of operation at 18-18.5% O2. Below that range the unit makes CO.

 

[Joerg]

My buddy had the "Mr. Heater" version of that heater, and had the exact same problem when using the wrong regulator with too much gas pressure. He switched to the regulator that came with the unit, and the issue went away. You can also tell there's an issue based on how uneven the main burner flame is.

It's possible you might need a lower gas pressure than normal since your elevation is so high?

My heater did not come with an external (secondary) regulator. There is a regulator at the tank that regulates pressure coming out of the tank but that is it. Would you be able to get a part # for the regulator your buddy uses?

 

[Joerg]

They do NOT have the secondary regulator built in. You MUST have a secondary stage regulator to drop the 10psi from the first stage to the 11" water column call out by the manufactures. Its is listed several places that no more than 14" of water column pressure can be inputted to the wall heater.

Can you recommend a model to use for the secondary regulator? Is that something I can pick up at HD?

 

[Firebrick43]

What model number of reg is on the tank itself?

Do you own the tank or is it the propane companies?

We use Rego and which one would depend on line size both in and out, line position, and load. LV4403B46 (full size) or LV3403B46 (compact) are back mount regulators. Lv4403B4 and Lv3403B4 are in-line or top mount regulators.

Do you have a picture of where the line enters the garage?

Unfortunately they are not a HD item.

 

[Joerg]

What model number of reg is on the tank itself?

Do you own the tank or is it the propane companies?

We use Rego and which one would depend on line size both in and out, line position, and load. LV4403B46 (full size) or LV3403B46 (compact) are back mount regulators. Lv4403B4 and Lv3403B4 are in-line or top mount regulators.

Do you have a picture of where the line enters the garage?

Unfortunately they are not a HD item.

Model appears to be Fisher R632A-JFF

I am leasing the tank from the propane company.

The attached pictures show the tank with lines going to the garage and to the house, the label on the regulator and the hook-up in the garage. As it turns out I seem to have a two stage regulator with an output of 9-13" WC. Exactly where it needs to be for the heater.

Got a reply from the manufacturer today basically just stating that I am using the heater outside the altitude window. Any ideas for a (safe) hack? I'll check with the propane folks too, but they are super busy with emergencies this time of the year. We are a very rural county. Plan "B" would be a different heater... and doing my homework before I buy!

 

[Firebrick43]

It is odd for a large tank to have an integral 2 stage regulator but that is indeed what you have.

We only use those for 120 gal tanks setting against a house/garage and a short run to the appliance.

I would still have the gas company check the pressure when they are able. I have seen a few malfunction

 

[Jackfre]

there IS no safe hack

 

[Joerg]

Thank you all again for all your advice. I will have the gas company look at it and if they can't remedy the issue I suppose I will have to invest in a different heater.

 

[fitter30]

Looked up another brand of heater as 4800' they adjusted pressure to 7" burner side.

 

[Joerg]

Looked up another brand of heater as 4800' they adjusted pressure to 7" burner side.

Thanks for the info! Did they mention how they adjusted the pressure? I don't want to alter the pressure to the house. An inline regulator that I could install in the line to the garage would be perfect.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Make certain that the thermocouple connection is clean and tight.

The thermocouple has become weak and is not making enough electricity to keep the gas valve open. This is typical, The pilot flame blows away from the thermocouple and the microvolt drops and the main valve thinks it detects pilot out and shuts off the gas. A replacement TC is under $20.

 

[Joerg]

The thermocouple has become weak and is not making enough electricity to keep the gas valve open. This is typical, The pilot flame blows away from the thermocouple and the microvolt drops and the main valve thinks it detects pilot out and shuts off the gas. A replacement TC is under $20.

Thank you for your reply. It is a brand new heater. I don't believe the thermocouple is the issue. If you look at the video in my OP you can see how the pilot flame properly heats the thermo couple until the heater kicks in. Then the pilot flame "blows away" from the thermo couple, eventually shutting off the propane supply. But the underlying cause is the pilot flame changing, not a failure of the thermo couple. Please correct me if I misunderstand your post.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Thank you for your reply. It is a brand new heater. I don't believe the thermocouple is the issue. If you look at the video in my OP you can see how the pilot flame properly heats the thermo couple until the heater kicks in. Then the pilot flame "blows away" from the thermo couple, eventually shutting off the propane supply. But the underlying cause is the pilot flame changing, not a failure of the thermo couple. Please correct me if I misunderstand your post.

If and shortly after the flame blows away from the thermocouple, the voltage will drop causing the gas valve to shut off. It is possible for a new TC to underperform. I have a Honeywell test meter. I wish I were closer to help you. If this were my situation, I would try a new TC first. Second, try and shield the pilot flame from the air current that pushes the flame away. You have to be very careful with this so the safety action of the flame-out function is not compromised. Our HVAC company worked on situation more than a few times. It seems this happens in the cold weather more often. I think the cooler air cools the TC quickly and here we are with your situation.
Do you have a good multimeter? I would be inclined to check the TC output. This may require the TC and pilot assembly to be removed. Easy Stuff.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I watched your video again. I think the TC is allowed to cool a little and the valve shuts the gas off for safety. The gas valve is very sensitive to voltage drop changes. I do not think it will take very much shielding to protect the pilot flame. But, how much and not change the safety of the valve? Maybe this time to call a local gas-fitter for help.
I get about 7 years of service from a TC in my shop furnace/heater. Because my furnace is above the man-door, the pilot can get disturbed when the door is opened and there is a gust of wind. Almost instantly the gas shuts off. I is working as it should.

 

[American Locomotive]

It's not the thermocouple. The flame shouldn't be blowing away from the pilot, and I can tell by the main burner flame that it's not burning right. Notice how unstable and erratic the combustion is? The main flame should be nice and smooth.

The main issue with trying to play and hack with gas pressures is that this is a ventless unit. If the combustion is bad, you will be poisoned.

Get a couple carbon monoxide detectors.

 

[fitter30]

Page 11 Need a gas manometer , 1/8" mpt hose adaptor. Use the right tap on the picture. Can either buy or make a water manometer ( you tube will have video)

https://www.mrheater.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/2775

 

[Joerg]

After talking to a neighbor who had the same problem with a similar heater, here is the fix. It has worked for him for years and so far works for me. The pilot jet assembly has two holes near the end where the propane line screws in. One hole is facing the front of the heater, the other the back. I used a small piece of duct tape to close up the hole in the back. Left the hole in the front open. The pilot light has not gone out since and the heater now works flawlessly at 4,800ft elevation. Hope someone will find this helpful.

 

[tcdetect202]

Thank you Joerg. I've had the propane company here quite a few times over the last two weeks trying to fix this same issue. They kept thinking there was air or water in the propane tank and kept giving me new tanks. That didn't work so they installed a brand new line to the heater and increased the diameter of the supply line. That didn't work. They tried pumping methanol in the tank because it was happening worse when it was colder out assuming it was freezing. That didn't work. I researched the problem and read your comments. At first, I said no way, how could that resolve the problem but, decided to try it anyways since nothing else was working even though I also replaced the heater with two new ones and they were doing the same thing brand new. I hooked one up and put my finger over the rear hole in the pilot and tried lighting the pilot. Unbelievably, the pilot lit. No one could get these pilots to stay lit. I wasn't comfortable with your solution with the duct tape covering the rear hole just because it was so close to the heat exchanger I feared the tape would melt and I'd be back to square one. So, I looked around and found a perfect size screw that I was able to partially thread into that rear hole and leave it in place to do the same thing and block off that hole. I figured the screw wouldn't melt and would be more permanent. I put it back together and it fired right up and has been working flawlessly since. Again, thank you for your post. I've been chasing this problem for a long time and this seems to have finally fixed it.