Propane or Electric

[mdeisenhauer]

As the title suggests, I'm torn between going all electric or getting propane for my range and water heater.

My shop is 50'x75' with a 16' two story strip being built out for an accommodation. Plan for this shop is a weekend getaway. I'm planning on using mini splits for AC. I have 200amp service to the building and will have relatively large loads at times, I have or will have the following; two car lifts, large compressor, 220v mig welder, plasma cutter, etc.

I've convinced myself both ways multiple times, but now I need to make a decision and would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on the subject

 

[mikedodge]

Electric is simpler and don't have to worry about keeping propane topped unless you're already doing that for something else.

 

[gsmith22]

put solar on the roof (or ground mount), making your own fuel that powers all electric appliances. let the solar backfeed the grid giving you credits. between federal 30% incentive, maybe state SRECs where the shop is located, it will all pay for itself in 5 to 7 years. won't have an electric bill and you can make your own fuel. you will be paying for propane forever

 

[ericm]

I'm going with mini splits for heating and cooling for my shop. And the house I'm having built. And the ADU/garage. This is in Oregon. It will have solar since Oregon does reasonable net metering. I was hoping to never need a propane fill again but I might end up with a propane generator, dammit.

You need manual J and S calculations to know how much heating and cooling you will need. You can DIY with loadcalc.net or pay an HVAC contractor to do it. For my shop, it comes out to about the same heating and cooling. If you're somewhere that gets really cold or not cold at all, it may be different.

Modern mini splits can work in fairly cold temps. They're installing a lot of them in Maine.

There's a spread sheet out there that lets you plug in the numbers for your local costs for propane, gas, electric, wood and figures out the cost per BTU. Or you can use this: https://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-home/heating-cost-comparison/

 

[theoldwizard1]

As the title suggests, I'm torn between going all electric or getting propane for my range and water heater.

The bonus of propane is you have a backup energy source, for heat, if you have an extended power outage.

 

[reader2580]

Heat pump water heaters are pretty efficient. Induction ranges can do most everything a gas stove can do.

 

[ericm]

The bonus of propane is you have a backup energy source, for heat, if you have an extended power outage.

With propane you still need electricity to run the furnace fan. Less than needed to run mini splits but there's still a generator or batteries involved.

 

[75gmck25]

For your planned use, I would consider all electric. However, I would also preinstall everything you need for a later purchase of backup generator that would run on propane. If you find that power outages are an issue, or you just decide you want a fail-safe, then get the generator and propane tank for backup.

 

[sjvicker]

Go with electric for the stove and water heater. Since you're asking this question I'm guessing you're not really into stovetop cooking much where you'd want the instant heat of propane/gas. Electric means you just need to vent steam from the stove and dont have to vent the water heater so its a simpler install.

Also, this is a weekend getaway shop. For me, it would be nice to have the piece of mind that there's one less combustible gas plumbed to the building.

 

[ericm]

I missed that you'll be living there on the weekends. My recommendation still stands though. The one drawback to mini splits is that they don't have a lot of excess capacity. They are not good at heating up a space fast when they had been turned off. It's often better to leave them on all the time.

Many mini splits are internet enabled. You could use some of those and turn them up a few days before you plan to be there. Many minis offer a low temp setting like 46 degrees to run minimally while keeping pipes from freezing.

I agree with wiring now for adding a generator later, if the building design is such that adding the generator wiring later on will cost a lot more than doing it now. The one problem with that is that the wiring for a whole house generator is different from wiring for a portable generator. so you kind of have to choose now.

 

[u2slow]

Propane is total racket here, unless you feel like doing some kind of wintertime supplemental arrangement with 100# portable cylinders.

Piped natural gas, electric, or wood for my heating needs. Electric baseboards are very cheap (to buy) and effective despite the consumption. A portable 4-10kw backup gen regardless.

 

[reader2580]

Piped natural gas, electric, or wood for my heating needs. Electric baseboards are very cheap (to buy) and effective despite the consumption. A portable 4-10kw backup gen regardless.

Electric baseboard is not inexpensive to run. My 1,300 sq ft house originally had baseboard heat. Electric bill was $3,500 a year when I bought it, and there was just one window air conditioner. I had forced air ductwork with gas furnace and central A/C installed. I am saving $2,000 a year in utility costs and the new HVAC system will be paid for by the end of the year from the savings.

 

[ericm]

Electric baseboards are very cheap (to buy) and effective despite the consumption.

Do you have cheap electricity in BC like much of the PNW? At more typical rates for the non PNW part of the US, baseboard heaters are the most expensive to run. By a lot.

 

[u2slow]

Do you have cheap electricity in BC like much of the PNW? At more typical rates for the non PNW part of the US, baseboard heaters are the most expensive to run. By a lot.

I only said they were a cheap to procure and install. They can be used sparingly in the winter for frost protection.

No, electricity is not cheap here, but propane is worse. I have a combo of heat pump, wood stove, and baseboards in the house. Shop is so far unheated.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Propane is total racket here, unless you feel like doing some kind of wintertime supplemental arrangement with 100# portable cylinders.

True EVERYWHERE !

Get a tank big enough to last the winter. Buy in summer.

 

[u2slow]

Get a tank big enough to last the winter. Buy in summer.

Time of year makes no difference here - always high. They have the tank program nailed down so that renting vs buying is a wash. They get you either way.

 

[mike93lx]

Heat pump water heaters are pretty efficient. Induction ranges can do most everything a gas stove can do.

One step further, Induction is a lot better than gas in most use cases. It's faster to heat up.

If you aren't running a wok or need some specialized cook ware, it's the way to go

 

[ericm]

We got a 120v induction hot plate to test out the concept as we're planning our new house to be all electric. It sure does heat a pan of water faster than the gas stove! The biggest problem I have is that the models with knobs are mostly the expensive ones. Also we will have to buy some new cookware since not all of ours is magnetic.

I got a CO2 meter a while back and cooking with the gas stove puts a lot of CO2 into the house. The meter doesn't measure air pollution but there's been a lot of studies recently that show that CO2 isn't the only product and there's some that are worse for you than CO2.

 

[reader2580]

No, electricity is not cheap here, but propane is worse. I have a combo of heat pump, wood stove, and baseboards in the house. Shop is so far unheated.

I'm curious what you pay for propane and electricity? The Canadian prices for diesel and gasoline are sky high so I am assuming the price for propane is also high. There is a 500 KV line running between Manitoba and the Minneapolis metro area. We sell to Canada in the winter due to all the electric heating and Canada sells to us in the summer for all the air conditioning.

I'm in the Midwest with electric rates around 11 to 16 cents per KWH and propane can almost always beat electric for resistance heating. Propane at times has been over $4 per gallon and then electric is cheaper.

 

[ALinCarolina]

OP, I may have missed it but what area of the country are you in? Unless you are in really really cold I would count on the mini-splits for heat and A/C. I have both gas cooktops and induction and to my surprise the induction is faster. If you are in an area with frequent power outages. then get a generator. Will you be on a well? If so, you will want the generator.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Electric is simpler. We have electric appliances where (with NG available), and I would certainly take electric over propane any day.

 

[u2slow]

I'm curious what you pay for propane and electricity?

I'm always in the 2nd tier rate of 14.08¢/kWh. BC has LOTS of hydroelectric capacity, but there is no price reduction for locals. Market rates prevail.

Costco was the only affordable propane, and its a bit of a trek for me to get to one. Last I knew, it was ~$17 to fill a 20# tank to 80%. Larger cylinders pro-rated accordingly. I occasionally have a beer with a local propane driver and he says those prices are untouchable. It's been a while, but something like $1.50-$1.60/L last time he fed me a number.

I have been running my BBQ off old automotive tank the last few years.

 

[ericm]

Propane is one of the few things priced reasonably for me CA. It's $2.75/gallon. That is bulk, in 20 lb increments it's much more. There are a lot of us in the mountains on propane. Some people formed an organization to negotiate with the propane companies as a group. Otherwise it'd be much more- one company not on the program charges $4/gallon. Electricity is $.42/kwh off peak and $.55 peak.

At our Oregon place electricity is $.14/kwh. Dunno what propane is there but the US EIA thinks it's about $2.50/gallon.

 

[P0234]

Newer electric flat tops are nearly as good as induction without the need for a change in cookware. They don’t quite drop heat as fast but you can always move a pot to another slot.

 

[reader2580]

I'm always in the 2nd tier rate of 14.08¢/kWh. BC has LOTS of hydroelectric capacity, but there is no price reduction for locals. Market rates prevail.

Costco was the only affordable propane, and its a bit of a trek for me to get to one. Last I knew, it was ~$17 to fill a 20# tank to 80%. Larger cylinders pro-rated accordingly. I occasionally have a beer with a local propane driver and he says those prices are untouchable. It's been a while, but something like $1.50-$1.60/L last time he fed me a number.

A bulk price of $3.75 per gallon USD, or more, would practically be considered highway robbery in the USA. Your electric rate is about 10 cents per KWH in USD. I can see why electricity is cheaper to heat with than propane. It is the opposite for most in the USA except if a heat pump is a viable option.

 

[mdeisenhauer]

OP, I may have missed it but what area of the country are you in? Unless you are in really really cold I would count on the mini-splits for heat and A/C. I have both gas cooktops and induction and to my surprise the induction is faster. If you are in an area with frequent power outages. then get a generator. Will you be on a well? If so, you will want the generator.

I'm an hour southwest of Houston Texas. The building has r10 insulation wrap and I plan on adding r15 to the exterior walls and sheathing backing to keep from having "hot walls". I think I'm going to go with the surface mount Mr Cool dual mini splits. I'll do one dual downstairs and one dual upstairs since upstairs will only be used if we have company staying or kids playing.

We are on a well but fortunately don't suffer from significant power outages. I have a portable gas 9500w generator if needed I can power the pump and other items. But if it's bad, I live 50 mins away and would just go home anyways.

 

[chinboys]

My two red cents worth.
Maximizing your insulation and reducing the number of air exchanges per hour will reduce your demand for cooling or heating with either propane or electricity.
Then add an energy recovery unit to get fresh air into the space while extracting the energy from the exhausted air.
I like the convenience of using electricity to heat and cool the space.
Use an air-to-air heat pump to either move heat from your space or to it based on the Manual J calculation.
For DHW, I would use a heat pump-based water heater or a tankless natural gas (if you can get it) heater.
The induction top stove and oven.

 

[reader2580]

I assume the OP wouldn't be asking about propane if natural gas is an option for him.

 

[dave*99]

And in the one in an million chances category....

During Hurricane Sandy, all the natural gas meters went under water here (coastal NJ). The utility turned off the gas. They replaced all the meters. At each house, they sawed off the pipe going into your house. Installed a new meter. Added a "Customer valve" after the meter. Left a hang tag on that customer valve that said get a plumber to reconnect your house and sign and return the hang tag to the utility. My natural gas was off for 2 weeks.

And the electric service stayed on the whole time! WTF!