Propane or oil?

[Zaxxn]

Hi Everyone!

Been following threads in this forum for a while, and still trying to make up my mind about heat for the shop I am building at the moment. Shop is roughly 1,500sqft, 14' ceilings, blown in ceiling insulation, battens in the 2x6 walls, OSB and Drywall on the walls. It's in CT on the shore.

Planned use as automotive shop for my own (and friend's) toys.

Going to keep it around 45F in the winter during the days, occasional use in the evenings after work for a few hours and on the weekends at around 68F. There is no gas in my street, so propane is the only gas route I can go.

So, either a unit heater with a propane tank that I can get propane delivered to outside of the shop, or a smaller oil tank (I have oil heat in the house, so deliveries are already set) and a furnace with minimal duct work in the shop somewhere. A/C will most likely be accomplished through a 220V through wall unit I already have (from a friend's restaurant that switched to a combined heat pump / A/C), but with an oil furnace I could also go with a traditional unit possibly.

Questions I have is first, what are your thoughts, and second, is a gas unit with an outside propane tank even feasible with my use or would the cheaper purchase price of a 100k BTU unit eater be eaten up in one year by the high cost of propane, and would a tank even make sense (don't want a huge monster tank anywhere...)

Thanks for your help already in advance,
--Zax

 

[finn]

75k would be sufficient. Oil tanks here are normally kept inside to avoid jelling. The tanks take a lot of space.

Now that our local number 2 fuel oil is actually relabeled ULSD diesel fuel with a red dye, and is seasonally blended, I don’t know if the indoor storage is necessary.

In any event, I ditched my high maintenance oil boiler for a clean burning propane unit, supplemented by a hanging heater, also propane fired. Freed up some floor space in the deal, too.

After living with propane and fuel oil fired equipment, I would never recommend fuel oil, no matter what the cost difference was.

 

[Zaxxn]

Thanks for the quick input! I am leaning towards the propane solution myself at the moment, for once because it's just a cleaner install, takes less space and I'd just use the A/C unit I have.

But how feasible is it to run something like that from a regular 120gal propane tank with the heating schedule I've indicated?

 

[Core]

Propane will be the easiest to deal with and easiest to live with.

 

[Richard Cranium]

propane is so much cleaner and easier.

 

[Socket Pounder]

Between those 2 options, propane. Now I live in a warmer climate but a heat pump is almost 1/4 the cost of propane for me. For a shop, even in CT I would think a heat pump would be sufficient.

 

[yeldogt]

I have a weekend place in rural PA ... well more rural than NYC. My part-time studio is around 1700sf. 45 degrees is cold -- are you one able to work in cold? If there is much in the garage -- getting the space and contents up to 68 degrees will take some BTU's and time. Do the best job you can with insulation and air sealing -- it may add some upfront cost but the benefits are forever. Especially important when using as you propose. Why? Because you can maintain higher temps with lower costs and get the benefits of what you are building the space for. For the few hundred $$ I get to use my space comfortably and when I want. Whenever you need to oversize either a heater or AC unit the comfort and efficiencies when you do use it suffer -- and you must oversize to bring temps up and down quickly.

The previous owner of my space installed a 40k 80% propane fan forced sealed combustion Empire cabinet heater -- with 2x100 gallon Propane tanks. It had no trouble maintaining a comfortable temp and if I was going to be gone for a few weeks I would drop it down to around 60 ... if I arrived one evening and wanted to use the space immediately I had a supplemental 5k electric heater that I would switch on in tandem with the propane ... The X hours of electric made little difference as not full time.

I'm in the process of rebuilding the property -- adding AC to this building and even with 18-20 KW electric -- I'm using a heat pump. I will use the heat pump and propane or both depending on need/cost ... I'm also installing a 1000gallon buried tank for the house. The house previously had two oil furnace and oil DHW.

Oil is great heat because it's hot -- but the cost of both buying and maintaining the equipment makes it undesirable IMO.

What you need to do is get a proper load calculation done on the building .... understand what the building requires for heat and AC ... the degree days and cost for the various fuels in your area. That way you know what it costs to maintain a particular temp -- it's easy to see what a higher temp will add. You will also know if the AC unit you have is big enough to do what you want it do do. -- how is the humidity?

I tried doing as you propose .. and even in my late 20's had to maintain higher temps to get the full use ... the need only increases as you age.

 

[Jackfre]

Propane is the way to go. Oil has more energy per gallon of fuel, but as YD pointed out, associated costs make it less desirable, and you will need to place the oil tanks in the building. Using small tanks to supply a gas appliance will cost you a lot of dough. Buy a 500 or better yet, a 1000 gallon LP tank and bury it in the yard. That will give you enough fuel to avoid riding the heating market through the winter. You buy in the summer and negotiate a deal with the supplier. The volumes are great enough that the supplier will work with you.

 

[Zaxxn]

Hmmmm...so maintaining the oil equipment wouldn't really be a cost issue - I've been maintaining my own furnaces for decades. The bigger issue is that I want to avoid a large, buried propane tank at this point in time because there is a good chance that my daughter builds an annex apartment to the new shop in the near future. So the plan was to go with a 120ga outside tank for now, IF it is feasible to do so. Meaning, if it's going to cost me a refill of $300 every month, then oil is definitely cheaper for me and I'll go that route.


The thought also wasn't to work in the 45F temperatures, but to keep the shop at that temp at times I am NOT working in there to keep things from freezing. Or maybe even go a little lower than that, and to increase that to 68F for probably a total of around 20h/week that I will be able to realistically use the shop. I am just clueless as to how much propane such a heating schedule could potentially consume. Just a rough guess or experience number would be helpful, as in 50ga/week or 10ga/week at average north-east winter temps. Just so I can get somewhat of an idea if that'll work for me or not.

Thanks again everyone for the awesome input so far. This is really helpful and I am definitely appreciating the insight and education!

--Zax

 

[yeldogt]

if you are really analyzing the flue gasses and not just keeping them going (oil equipment) .. then get an oil heater and use the same tanks. I can tell you from experience that yearly cleaning and nozzles replacements only will not get you peak operation.

No one can predict fuel costs -- it's often a wash between the two (not including maintenance) When looked at over many years. Oil equipment requires more complicated flue .. and it more expensive to purchase. It was recommended to me to get two 100g tanks for my 40k heater -- you can only fill them 80% and they need to be above 20% to maintain the pressure in very cold weather.

I get you want to maintain a low temp when you are not working out there. But you have to get it up to temp ? So how long does that take ..it can take a lot of time if everything is 40 degrees. Only you know what you are comfortable with -- some people work outside and are used to the cold ... or having many layers of clothing. woking with cold tools. The larger the setback -- the larger the heater (BTU) needed to get it up to temp fast. Then it's often too big and cycles a lot ... again ..some people don't care.

I have a well insulated studio -- may spend $500-600 a season on propane maintaining the temp in an average winter ... and a bit of electricity depending on how I use it. It's all about the insulation -- again, no one knows what you space will finally be like.

 

[couch67]

+1 on propane, I switched our house 4 years ago and no regrets. Prices have been much better on propane (but as posters have said this can change anytime). Now I do have a 1000 gal in the yard, and fill up once in the summer. that helps a lot with pricing as it has been much cheaper in the summer.

you can gang 120gal tanks together if you want to stretch out the fillups.

couch

 

[Adk Mike]

Propane. The only fuel you buy that pumps it self. 2/100 gallon tanks and some type of ceiling mounted unit is the way to go. I like the Modine Hotdawg. Radiant is first class but pricey. Tube heaters mounted on the ceiling.
I’ve had a Hotdawg for 15 years in my shop. It’s mounted above my head out of the way.
Floor space is too expensive to ty up with oil tanks and floor mounted furnaces.

 

[Adk Mike]

Those tanks hold 120 gallons of water. But with propane to 80% they hold 100 gallons of propane. Those tanks are called 120’s or sometimes 100 gallon tanks. In the trade they are called 420’s. All the same thing. Lease or rent them. You can change venders if they get out of hand.

 

[Zaxxn]

I really love this place and all the input and knowledge around here! I think I'll concentrate my future research on the propane route with a couple 120/100 gallon tanks. For some reason I never thought about putting two tanks together.

I have NEVER done anything with gas heat before, so I need to figure out how to handle supply lines and such and need to check with the regulations for placement of the tanks and so on. But yea, a ceiling mounted unit would be great and space saving and simple enough.

Thanks again everyone for your input so far - I am sure I will have more questions!

--Zax

 

[Bretny]

You should really look at the cost of a propane tank if your wanting more than 100lb tanks. They can get pricy and you may not meet the minimum fuel useage per month on such a small building. You should call your local propane suppliers.

Your in CT? If so fuel oil is very easy to find and something thats easy to stock up on when the price is down. Used heating oil tanks can be had for free around here (NY). Also heating oil tanks are kept outside quite a bit around here. Some precautions should be taken but they are easy.

With that being said i have a 50btu propane unit heater ran off a 100lb tank, i have 3 spares. I have this heater because i dont have a 14' ceiling(only 8') so space was a bit of an issue.

Mobile home downdraft heaters can be had for prety cheap and you have the height to put it up out of the way.

 

[finn]

One other thing to consider is that some heaters aren’t rated to keep room temperature below 50 degrees because of condensation and heat exchanger corrosion issues.

My friends (Bryant or Carrier, don’t remember which is the old and which is the replacement) failed like this and my Beacon Morris (Sterling) warns about it in the manual.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

If you go propane, shop suppliers. My original supplier was bought by a bigger company, and CT law allowed them to charge a premium for low use customers. When I found I was being charged nearly $5 a gallon, I switched suppliers to a company affiliated with the company I buy heating oil for the house from. My new supplier doesn’t price based on usage.

 

[mx500]

1 hr per gallon on propane at 91,502. another neat thing about propane, if you have a separate tank for barn and home, you can connect to the barn tank if you need to, in an emergency.

 

[6768rogues]

Ordinarily I would recommend propane but if you already have an oil furnace it makes the decision harder. A big factor is the price of each fuel in your area. I like propane/natural gas because I can use a Reznor hanging heater and they system uses zero floor space and is far above combustible heavier that air fumes that could be present.
Around here it is better to buy a propane tank and shop around when it needs to be filled. With a loaner tank, you are locked in to one supplier and they will hose you.

 

[Jackfre]

Is it going to cost a lot for propane using 120's? Yes. You will ride the market through-out the heating season. If you don't want to bury a large tank then get an above ground 500. Having to **** around with small propane tanks is a wonderful hobby. You will enjoy it I would estimate that if you go with the larger tank you will be comfortable and well on your way to making up the cost of the tank in fuel $avings. You will have essentially the same issue with oil, but your tanks are 275 gallon and have to be inside. I think the maximum storage for oil is 660 gallons. Although that was under discussion to increase storage when I was on the 31 Committee.

 

[66cj225]

Now that our local number 2 fuel oil is actually relabeled ULSD diesel fuel with a red dye, and is seasonally blended, I don’t know if the indoor storage is necessary.

I wonder when the forum will give this change in #2 fuel oil the same acknowlegement that has been provided to motor oil........... yearly cleaning ? 2 or 3 seems fine

 

[Empty Pockets]

When we moved out of town to the country, we went with propane. Just choose your supplier wisely

 

[Zaxxn]

First off, once again, thank you to everyone providing helpful insight into this thread. I have went back and forth on this until this weekend, when through mentioning of my heating discussion a friend offered to give me a 10 year old oil fired hot air furnace in perfect condition, including A/C coil and accessories because he installed a gas furnace and has no use for the old one anymore.

So it seems I will be going oil fired forced air in the shop, and most likely get a compressor and use the A/C through that as well. Probably not the most efficient setup possible, but for the limited use it should be fine. I am thinking oil tank outside of the shop.

As for the vent, I am contemplating a oil furnace power vent vertically through the wall.
The furnace supports it, and one less roof penetration works for me. Anyone installed a setup like that before?

Thanks again,
--Zax

 

[yeldogt]

One would be wise to fully inspect. A 10 year old furnace can not be perfect -- unless maybe a Thermopride. Also, make sure you can get a match for a 10 year old coil -- otherwise it may make cold air .. but at a price. What size is it ?

Not trying to be a downer -- but I have seen many spend as much or more on a system because they get the beginnings cheap .. and never get what they want.

If you build on ..what will you use for that?

 

[Bretny]

Parts are cheap for oil heaters. How would buying a new $1000 unit save any money?

 

[yeldogt]

Parts are cheap for oil heaters. How would buying a new $1000 unit save any money?

Oil heaters are like boats .. glad when they are gone. Parts .... compared to what? -- propane ...... that never need any?

No one adds oil unless they are forced to for some odd situation.

 

[Jackfre]

First off, once again, thank you to everyone providing helpful insight into this thread. I have went back and forth on this until this weekend, when through mentioning of my heating discussion a friend offered to give me a 10 year old oil fired hot air furnace in perfect condition, including A/C coil and accessories because he installed a gas furnace and has no use for the old one anymore.

So it seems I will be going oil fired forced air in the shop, and most likely get a compressor and use the A/C through that as well. Probably not the most efficient setup possible, but for the limited use it should be fine. I am thinking oil tank outside of the shop.

As for the vent, I am contemplating a oil furnace power vent vertically through the wall.
The furnace supports it, and one less roof penetration works for me. Anyone installed a setup like that before?


Thanks again,
--Zax

If you are going to power vent I would suggest, if the unit is firing under 165kbtu input that you get a Tjernlund SSII. It blows straight away from the building rather than down, as the Field units do. Cleaning is simpler as well and they use a material handling fan which, while not "self cleaning" will retain much less...****.

 

[Adk Mike]

Power venters with oil are junk. Toss the oil furnace. In our climate most people use 150-200 gallons of propane a year. Mainly because your not out there every day.
Are you going to waste floor space that cost 100’s of dollars per sugared foot for an oil tank and furnace.
Cut your losses. Go on line buy a Modine Hotdawg HD65. Up out of the way and all your floor space freed up.
If you think you need to buy a propane tank and you don’t. At least get a 500. Easier to sell later.