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Propane Prices?!?!?!?!

reader2580

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Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
14,514
Location
Minneapolis, MN
After last winter's issues with propane supply and pricing I decided I will never have a house with propane for heat. Even at today's pricing of $1.69 or so it still costs a fair bit more than natural gas.

I sold my house last spring and was house shopping this summer. I eliminated a lot of houses simply because they had propane heat. I finally bought a foreclosed house with electric heat, but it had gas in the street. I had central air and a natural gas furnace installed. I wanted geothermal, but I couldn't get it financed with my renovation loan.
 
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rustyjames

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Joined
Dec 28, 2008
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1,077
Location
central nj
I'm going through application the process right now to have NG installed. I just found out it's available where in at, I wasn't sure because it's a new location, and all my neighbors seems to have LP or oil.
 

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
We just went from $1.99 up to $2.29. Still cheaper than the other place we had that was charging almost $4.00 just because his dad passed away and he got into a lawsuit with his sisters over the business. Then he died, the sisters sold the business, and propane drops $2.00/gal. Go figure!!!!!
 

Kogashuko

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
24
I had a similar discussion with someone else. I am not too familiar with how propane, ng, regular gasoline is produced but... funny how you can get gasoline cheaper at the pumps and propane was cheap recently but when heating season comes around no one will come up off the cost. Hell, you know the gas fired electric plants are cheap to run right now but they arnt lowering your electric or gas rate. Funny, how they are quick to raise prices when fuel costs go up though.
 

Dragster Racer

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Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
1,891
Location
Morrison, IL
Of course propane is more expensive. Always has been by a fair margin. Plus they maintain a fleet of delivery vehicles and drivers. But if I want natural gas, I will have neighbors. I will pay the higher price.
 

Kogashuko

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
24
Geothermal is ALWAYS the cheapest "cost of operation" for heating and cooling, if you can get past the installation costs !

That is no longer the case technically. Single head splits have an equal (+ or - depending on brand and size) to Geo in all climates above around 0 - 5 deg F air temp. Below that equal loop temps must be above freezing to equal the same. Once you factor in duct loss and pumping costs you are at a lower efficiency. You also have the unmeasured and untested costs if the above ground temps most of the winter months are above freezing. The geo system has a habit of removing the heat from the ground and not being able to replenish it as fast over time.

If I were to go with geo I would have a giant house, spray foamed, with r30-40 walls, R60+ roof, conditioned crawl with 3lb+ roofing floor on the ground (since the ground will have a lower temp with geo you don't want it sucking the heat out of the house) and about or above a 4-5 ton load calc. Even then I would want a Mitsubishi or LG ductless VRF system that is ground sourced run on a phase converter and a variable speed loop pump. You would still be hard pressed if your design temp was above 0-5deg F to have a lower operational cost.

If you have a new duct system, inside the conditioned space, with supply and return wells with the required GPM that would be different. Otherwise, you are best to rely on technology and efficiency not available 10 years ago to pull the heat from the air as opposed to the earth.

Final example, the well pump I use runs on a 20amp breaker (although the operating amps are closer to 10) for 10 GPM. This will provide enough water for between a 2 to 5 ton system depending on who's math you use. My 9000btu system I am installing uses a 15amp breaker and 14guage romex. The only reason it doesn't use smaller is because there are no commercially available smaller breakers. A LG 2 ton VRF system uses a max of 10.2 amps running for heat. What does this mean? Well depending on your system, your loop (remember open loop is best case and closed loop requires higher flow rates with higher resistance) and temperatures, in many cases your water pump might use as much electricity or more than an entire ductless system alone for the same heat load. This makes the COP numbers completely unusable on a geo unit.
 
Last edited:

TractorJeff

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Dec 8, 2013
Messages
3,309
Location
Elkhorn, WI
I know TSC fills locally and must compete with a Retail Propane Distributor nearby. Hence they tend to keep their profit margins lower. Still a good idea to ask about filling Grill tanks. Thanks For Reviving this Thread!
 

Randy in Maine

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Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
2,176
Location
The Beach
My propane "guy" who fills my house tank also fills my BBQ tank(s) and my VW bus propane tank (for the stove). Never an issue.

For the record a horizontal propane tank attached to a vehicle or a boat does not need an overflow prevention device.
 

reader2580

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Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
14,514
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Of course propane is more expensive. Always has been by a fair margin. Plus they maintain a fleet of delivery vehicles and drivers. But if I want natural gas, I will have neighbors. I will pay the higher price.

I have natural gas service and my neighbors are far enough away I can't even see the houses due to trees and distance. It appears that natural gas service wasn't available when the houses were built, but it is now. My house had electric heat and the house down the street has oil heat. (I have natural gas heat now after renovations.)

My area is still pretty suburban. It isn't a rural area by any means.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
43,076
Location
SE MI
That is no longer the case technically. Single head splits have an equal (+ or - depending on brand and size) to Geo in all climates above around 0 - 5 deg F air temp. Below that equal loop temps must be above freezing to equal the same. Once you factor in duct loss and pumping costs you are at a lower efficiency. You also have the unmeasured and untested costs if the above ground temps most of the winter months are above freezing. The geo system has a habit of removing the heat from the ground and not being able to replenish it as fast over time.
I am not an expert, but if the in-ground loop is not maintaining +/- 5F during an entire year, it is not big enough !

The whole point of spending the money on geothermal is to have a CONSTANT heat source/sink. Properly sized it will be !!
 

lphauler

New member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2
Location
Central Iowa
Prices for LP will be about 30-40 cheaper this year then last. I booked most of my customers for 1.59 for this year and as of today....1-29-15 I got the OK to book my customers for this years contract at.....wait for it.....:thumbup:


1.09 booked or 1.06 if you prepay it. That runs from Sept. 2015 through end of March 2016. No pricing on summer fill yet.
 

Will S.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
446
Location
The First State
I called 4 places today; all 4 were deifferent, ranging from 1.77 to 2.10. Fuel oil was more consistent, at around 3.04/3.05.
 

soj

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
729
Location
North Georgia
Prices for LP will be about 30-40 cheaper this year then last. I booked most of my customers for 1.59 for this year and as of today....1-29-15 I got the OK to book my customers for this years contract at.....wait for it.....:thumbup:


1.09 booked or 1.06 if you prepay it. That runs from Sept. 2015 through end of March 2016. No pricing on summer fill yet.

lphauler, welcome to GJ! I am glad to see someone here "in the business". I currently have a 500GA leased tank, and am considering buying a 1000GL so I can shop providers. I might call on you for advice on the purchase.

My last delivery in Aug 2014 was $2.15. With added hazmat and fuel recovery fees it was 2.24.
-jp
 

langkg

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
5
:eyecrazy:
That is no longer the case technically. Single head splits have an equal (+ or - depending on brand and size) to Geo in all climates above around 0 - 5 deg F air temp. Below that equal loop temps must be above freezing to equal the same. Once you factor in duct loss and pumping costs you are at a lower efficiency. You also have the unmeasured and untested costs if the above ground temps most of the winter months are above freezing. The geo system has a habit of removing the heat from the ground and not being able to replenish it as fast over time.

If I were to go with geo I would have a giant house, spray foamed, with r30-40 walls, R60+ roof, conditioned crawl with 3lb+ roofing floor on the ground (since the ground will have a lower temp with geo you don't want it sucking the heat out of the house) and about or above a 4-5 ton load calc. Even then I would want a Mitsubishi or LG ductless VRF system that is ground sourced run on a phase converter and a variable speed loop pump. You would still be hard pressed if your design temp was above 0-5deg F to have a lower operational cost.

If you have a new duct system, inside the conditioned space, with supply and return wells with the required GPM that would be different. Otherwise, you are best to rely on technology and efficiency not available 10 years ago to pull the heat from the air as opposed to the earth.

Final example, the well pump I use runs on a 20amp breaker (although the operating amps are closer to 10) for 10 GPM. This will provide enough water for between a 2 to 5 ton system depending on who's math you use. My 9000btu system I am installing uses a 15amp breaker and 14guage romex. The only reason it doesn't use smaller is because there are no commercially available smaller breakers. A LG 2 ton VRF system uses a max of 10.2 amps running for heat. What does this mean? Well depending on your system, your loop (remember open loop is best case and closed loop requires higher flow rates with higher resistance) and temperatures, in many cases your water pump might use as much electricity or more than an entire ductless system alone for the same heat load. This makes the COP numbers completely unusable on a geo unit.

:eyecrazy: Hugh..??? wouldn't it be more simple to state area of country so we know average temps and what your electricity / fuel bills are and any other specifics in terms of what you're heating? I'm an engineer but reading all that still had me a little puzzled. Not poking but we're not all Geo experts here. I think the OP was interested in comparing costs to heat...??..
 

catfish500 mark

Active member
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
27
Good grief, you guys up north are sure getting the screws put to ya.First of all there is NO freaking propane shortage.There is only greed.And holy cow, your prices for a damn tank are crazy.Our propane here in Tn is 1.48 a gallon and if someone wants a tank they generally sell for aroung a dollar per gallons capacity (500 gallon tank=$500.00), and thats only if its in really good condition!!!!!!!!!!:bs:
 
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