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Propane Torch Bottle Problem

engineer2

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I needed to use a 14 oz. Bernzomatic propane bottle with a screw-on torch. The bottles are probably 5+ years old. One is full, the other is about 1/3 full. I can feel the liquid inside sloshing around. They won't light, but if I use a cig lighter, the flame is like a candle with the valve wide open. Ambient temperature around 80°F. Same results with both bottles and 2 different torch heads tried on each bottle. They worked fine last year. I don't know how they could go bad. Please enlighten me.
 
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The Cobbler

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it really can't be the propane with the liquid in there.
I had a camping lantern that wouldn't light properly . I unscrewed the tip in the valve body . inside was a spring and a round ball as I recall. didn't see anything abnormal. put it back together & it worked as it should .
I suspect the bearing was stuck, not allowing the fuel to pass .
I think I pushed something thru the orifice to make sure it was clear
 
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RTM

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If two different bottles work the same, like Cobbler, I would suspect the thing I am trying to light. Do you have something else to connect? Heater, stove, etc etc?
 
OP
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engineer2

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No, just a few torch heads. Strange, it's almost like they have low pressure. Anybody know what the normal PSI is?
I'll have to find my 1960's torch head and try it too. That one is the simple valve type with the removable orifice and head.
I'll try poking the Shrader valve to see if there is pressure.
 

scooby074

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Get a Bernzomatic TS4000. Its all I use now. Got a couple.

Ive had this exact trouble with other tips. Sometimes I could get it to start with a sparker at low flow, then gently crank the valve open. but most times nothing. Never a problem with the TS. THe problem is like the flame doesnt "attach" to the jet tip for whatever reason. The TS has a "Turbo" tip (or something simular that Bernz calls it), not only is it hotter, there is more swirl and the flame seems to be more "firmly" attached to the tip. Its kind of hard to describe.
 
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engineer2

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It was about 90° in the garage last night an all the bottles and torch heads worked as they were supposed to. Looks to be a temperature issue. 75°Fit looks like a candle flame. At 55° last winter they wouldn't light at all.
Are these small bottle pure propane or do they mix other gases in?
 

lindemannms

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HI all, I'm usually not much of a poster anywhere but I've had the same issue with a few disposable propane bottles that I left outside for several months. I was using a BernzTs8000, it burns a bit hotter than the Ts4000 that scooby mentioned, great torches.

My bottles were in a bucket that filled up with rain water, and some definitely ended up working its way inside. i found they started working well enough after a few times of screwing them on and off and getting the gas moving through the valve. I also blew out the top of the bottle and my torchhead as there was some built up gunk in the top. They burned much better after that and shaking them up. They had a lot of condensation around the flame that I noticed when heating steel up, not present when i switched to a new tank. Not sure if that helps you out.
 

RTM

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It was about 90° in the garage last night an all the bottles and torch heads worked as they were supposed to. Looks to be a temperature issue. 75°Fit looks like a candle flame. At 55° last winter they wouldn't light at all.
Are these small bottle pure propane or do they mix other gases in?
That's not right. I've used mine in colder temps (55°F) with no problems. Maybe your cans are contaminated. Lots of websites saying cold will reduce the pressure in the cans, but not 75°
 

2oolhound

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Are these small bottle pure propane or do they mix other gases in?
They are straight propane. A lot of guys save and refill these tanks at home from 20, 40 or 100 lb tanks which are cheaper to fill than buying the little ones all the time. You can buy the fill valves on line. There are a lot of youtube videos on the procedure.
 

Sumboodie

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I've needed to warm propane tanks up when it was cold out, but that was -30*, not 55*!
 
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engineer2

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I'll try to poke the Shrader valve and see what happens. I'll also try to get a pressure reading. I bought a new tank for comparison. I mainly use them for plumbing and some soldering. My 2 Bernzomatic tanks are probably 10-15 years old.
 

sparky 1971

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I've had problems with all of mine, including the barbecue bottle when it's been hotter than the gates of hell. It's usually solved by unscrewing the head or hose from the bottle and reinstalling it.
 

isb cornbinder

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I worked with a total *****. He often put others at risk. His job was clean-up and go-for.
One of his more stupid moments came after the supervisor asked him to go around the shop and clean up. Mister Stupid gathered up a bunch of Bernzomatic propane bottles and took them to the machine room. He was drilling holes in the bottles and letting the fuel blow out, when I caught up with him. I yelled for the supervisor and the shop was evacuated and the fire department called.
Stupid was spoken to by the supervisor. This is a situation of the lights are out and no one is home.
The last I heard of this guy was. he was caught sleeping in a company vehicle, after several hours of the supervisor looking for him.
 

RTM

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A different level of *****, not quite on his way to total.

Not using the propane can upright. We were tailgate barbequing around a bunch of kids, and he is cooking, and his can is at about a 30° angle downward. I hollered at him, and before the words were completely out of my mouth, he gets a HUGE flare up. Scared the hell out of him and a few others. We talked about propane can's orientation after he calmed down.
 

Sumboodie

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A different level of *****, not quite on his way to total.

Not using the propane can upright. We were tailgate barbequing around a bunch of kids, and he is cooking, and his can is at about a 30° angle downward. I hollered at him, and before the words were completely out of my mouth, he gets a HUGE flare up. Scared the hell out of him and a few others. We talked about propane can's orientation after he calmed down.
I light stuff often with the torch upside down. It's never done anything other than a flame just the same as upright.
 
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RTM

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I've been told you are encouraging liquid flow out of the valve. If the system, like your torch possibly, has a small enough orifice, good enough regulators, it may not matter. I've seen it demonstrated with another system, so I knew I needed to stop him.
 

budget76

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i've got the same issue with a couple older bottles. Convinced myself its the torch heads I have and i'm buying one of the TS4000's soon
 

dogdog

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you might have got some dust clogging your nozzle on the torch. The Craigslist air-acetylene torch I bought was like that, had to clean it and ultra sonic clean it before it makes some decent flame. still not as good as a new one.

as for TS4000 and TS8000, if you are willing to sprint the extra, the TS8000 is way better, I got both, my perfer one is the TS8000 when some real heat is needed. Do better than the air-acetylene at some task.
 

Terra Nova

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I light stuff often with the torch upside down. It's never done anything other than a flame just the same as upright.
I regularly use one inverted when starting a quick fire to burn yard waste/trash etc and don't feel like getting fancy with my fire prep. It's never acted any different but maybe it's not the best idea after all :dunno:
 

Sumboodie

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I've been told you are encouraging liquid flow out of the valve. If the system, like your torch possibly, has a small enough orifice, good enough regulators, it may not matter. I've seen it demonstrated with another system, so I knew I needed to stop him.
Not sure. I have a couple Benzomatic ones with built in clicky clickers for lighting it.
 

Lassen Forge

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I have one we use for lighting our woodstove, and the tips eventually will clog with corrosion or whatnot, their flame goes fron sharp and precise to sickly candle. I went through the torch stem to stern with welding tip cleaners, compressed air, etc... got it to run right again for a year, but then went back to running bad.

I recognized that part of the issue is if I tip the bottle it exacerbates the problem and it clogs sooner.
 
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engineer2

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It got to the upper-80's in the garage a couple of weeks ago and I tried everything again.
All the tanks and torches lit up and worked normally.
I guess I'll have to keep the tanks inside from now on.
 
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Ton ton

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HI all, I'm usually not much of a poster anywhere but I've had the same issue with a few disposable propane bottles that I left outside for several months. I was using a BernzTs8000, it burns a bit hotter than the Ts4000 that scooby mentioned, great torches.

My bottles were in a bucket that filled up with rain water, and some definitely ended up working its way inside. i found they started working well enough after a few times of screwing them on and off and getting the gas moving through the valve. I also blew out the top of the bottle and my torchhead as there was some built up gunk in the top. They burned much better after that and shaking them up. They had a lot of condensation around the flame that I noticed when heating steel up, not present when i switched to a new tank. Not sure if that helps you out.
I noticed that you are fairly new as far as posting therefore welcome to garage journal. It's especially nice to see a fellow virginian on garage journal.
 

Ton ton

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I worked with a total *****. He often put others at risk. His job was clean-up and go-for.
One of his more stupid moments came after the supervisor asked him to go around the shop and clean up. Mister Stupid gathered up a bunch of Bernzomatic propane bottles and took them to the machine room. He was drilling holes in the bottles and letting the fuel blow out, when I caught up with him. I yelled for the supervisor and the shop was evacuated and the fire department called.
Stupid was spoken to by the supervisor. This is a situation of the lights are out and no one is home.
The last I heard of this guy was. he was caught sleeping in a company vehicle, after several hours of the supervisor looking for him.
Sounds like sleeping was one of his better moves.
 

MoonRise

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DO NOT LIGHT A PROPANE TORCH WITH A LIGHTER! USE A TORCH SPARK IGNITER!

Holding a small flame in your hand in from of a stream of flowing flammable propane (or MAPP, or MAP/Pro, or acetylene, etc) gas to light the torch can burn you. Don't do that. Use the spark igniter, if 'catches' a little bit of the gas to more easily ignite the gas and also gets your hand FARTHER AWAY from the gas and flame.

There is no more MAPP ( methylacetylene-propadiene propane) gas.


There are the yellow MAP/Pro cylinders, which have nothing to do with actual MAPP and are filled with propylene gas. Maybe 10% or so 'hotter' than propane, but not the same temp or heat level as actual MAPP (used in the same torch).

If you have a cheapo little propane torch head and compare that to a MAP/Pro torch head like a TS4000 or TS8000 torch head using MAP/Pro, then the TS4000/TS8000 is way hotter and puts out more heat but that is mostly due to the better torch head (bigger flame and the 'swirl' flame) and only a little bit due to the MAP/Pro instead of the plain propane.

A HD by me has/had some cylinders labeled MAPP in big bold letters, but if you read the label in the small print it states that they are filled with propylene gas (same as the Map/Pro). From an Italian/European company IIRC and not Worthington/Bernzomatic, and I was excited until I read the small print and it says that the gas is just propylene. IIRC, those cylinders were maybe $1-2 less than the Bernzomatic MAP/Pro cylinders one shelf up. Still 3x the price of a plain propane cylinder though.

I'm almost tempted to buy one cylinder and then sue the *&#%$ out of them for False Labeling and Emotional Distress because I miss actual MAPP gas and recently used up my last cylinder of actual MAPP.

TS8000 torch is awesome IMNSHO. Get that one if you are looking at a propane/MAP torch.

As to the OP, the gas didn't go bad. I'd guess that the cylinder valve is gummed up or 'stuck' or the torch head orifice is gummed up or clogged (dust, dirt, spider web, missing sock, etc). But you said you had the same weak pathetic almost flame with two different torch heads, so I'd say that the cylinder valves have mechanically gone 'bad'.

Get a brand new cylinder and try that. If it works with your torch, then the old cylinders have gone bad. Properly dispose of the old cylinders (burn off the propane and THEN dispose of the empty cylinder) and move on.

Note that there was a recall and whole bunch of mechanically bad Worthington propane and MAP/Pro cylinders around the 2012 time frame.



If you hear/feel the liquified propane sloshing in the cylinder, then there is liquified propane in there. And it's liquified because of the internal gas pressure. No need to poke the cylinder valve, except to maybe mechanically vent and blow out any dust/dirt/crud from the valve. Obviously do so OUTSIDE and wear gloves (cold venting propane and also the propane stink). And be prepared that if the valve is 'sticky' it might then get stuck in the open position and continue to vent the propane.

As to the refilling of a 14-16 oz disposable propane cylinder from a 20 lb (or larger) propane tank, IF you do that then the DOT and federal regulations state that the cylinder can NOT be legally 'transported' (it's on the label of the disposable cylinder in the fine print too) . The cylinder and cylinder valve and over-pressure relief are also made to a price-point and are not super durable. Hence they are disposable. You also have to fuss a bit to actually get a 'proper' charge from the 20 lb tank into the disposable cylinder without overfilling it (and causing the over-pressure relief valve to vent the propane and then not reseal). And the old trick of turning your 20 lb tank upside down to flow liquid propane into the disposable cylinder doesn't work anymore because of the OPD float in the 20 lb tank. Or so I've heard. :lol:

:beer:
 

MoonRise

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Most people still call the yellow cylinders 'MAPP', but it's not actually MAPP.

MAP/Pro or MAP-substitute-that-isn't-as-good-as-real-MAPP.

And yes, the yellow gas cylinders are 2-3x the price of a plain disposable propane cylinder.

And a lot of the 'tall' disposable propane cylinders are only 14.1 oz of propane and not 16 oz like they used to be just a few years ago. Shrinkflation.

The short/wide 'camping' propane cylinders still seem to be (for now) a full 16 oz. But those are not as easy to grip for some folks as the taller/skinny propane cylinders.
 

dscheidt

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Some of the others posted about MAPP, so I assume it's available. Checked locally (Menards) and it's over twice the price of propane. $12 vs $5.
No, it's something else. Mostly propylene with a bit of propane, for the worthington made cylinders, usually called 'MAP Pro'. Someone else was selling a different gas mix, which was propylene, propane, and dimethyl ether (in proportions unkown to me). That should have a higher btu output than propylene, but not hugely higher. I haven't seen it locally in a long time, don't know if it's still on offer. It was called 'Modern MAPP' or something like that.
 
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