Proper lathe stand

[Jswain]

Just one more thing to think about if you do go with precision Matthews...the stand ships for free with the lathe.

**** around and find out you want it later and it probably will cost a few bucks.

But I also agree with the others you could find a helluva lathe in that price range, or a lathe and a benchtop mill

 

[katit]

Just one more thing to think about if you do go with precision Matthews...the stand ships for free with the lathe.

**** around and find out you want it later and it probably will cost a few bucks.

But I also agree with the others you could find a helluva lathe in that price range, or a lathe and a benchtop mill

As I replied to others - help me get good one and get it into basement - I will pay a fee

 

[Jswain]

As I replied to others - help me get good one and get it into basement - I will pay a fee

If I was closer I would, travelling from Canada might kill the deal lol

 

[Boogerman]

I've set up several lathes and made stands. Toolbox absolutely won't cut it, as others have said. Vibration is the enemy of precision in a lathe; it induces chatter. There is nothing in a toolbox to support this kind of weight and dampen vibration; the loose tools, drawers, thin sheet metal will all magnify any vibration and set up harmonics in the lathe that will cause it to chatter in cutting. The toolbox will also likely not hold the toolbox consistently, it will change level over time because of insufficient strength.

My preference is a heavy steel stand made from tubular steel; with plywood sheets bracing the legs in addition to steel; to dampen vibration. Attach the plywood with self tapping screws in numerous places on each steel member. Put adjusting nuts on the bottom of the legs, and use them to initially level the lathe. Once you have it operating and stable, set the legs in concrete; I mound up a small pyramid of concrete around each leg.

My preference for the top is 3 to 4 inches thick of laminated plywood and particle board layers. Again, to dampen vibration. A sheet of steel does very little to dampen vibration, it is like the diaphragm of a speaker, easily sets up harmonic standing waves. Then, level the lathe on top by shimming under the lathe bed supports, as numerous others have detailed. If you put a toolbox under the stand, keep it independent of the stand, so the drawers and the tools inside won't vibrate and cause the lathe to chatter.

The line of least resistance here is to buy the PM stand, and then if needed add weight and mass to it to further reduce chatter. Another thing that will help the lathe is to replace the motor with a 3 phase, and use a phase converter/inverter to drive it. 3 phase has less power pulses to cause vibration in the drivetrain than 240/120 does.

 

[Whitworth]

At the price of steel there's no way your fabbing a stand with 3/16" plate at a savings over the factory stand.
Not to mention the time and effort.

For storage, put the lathe in the center of the shop with the HF rolling cabinet right behind it.

For "buy used, buy American." Prices on old iron have soared in recent years and the value to take an old lathe on as a project just isn't there anymore.

 

[LopezBart]

For "buy used, buy American." Prices on old iron have soared in recent years and the value to take an old lathe on as a project just isn't there anymore.

This really depends on where you are... small older machines have increased in price, but as soon as they get heavy the price often drops to under 2k. This one was $1500 a few weeks ago... it's not going down the basement stairs, but was a nice machine.

 

[whateg01]

For anywhere near that kind of money you should be able to find a nice lathe ready to go, not something that needs work unless it is a 10ee or something. Light enough to get down the stairs presents a problem though.

A 10ee will go down the stairs, if by down you mean through them!

 

[Whitworth]

This really depends on where you are... small older machines have increased in price, but as soon as they get heavy the price often drops to under 2k. This one was $1500 a few weeks ago... it's not going down the basement stairs, but was a nice machine.

There is a reason those monsters always go cheap. Stairs is one, 15 HP 3 phase is another.

 

[katit]

There is a reason those monsters always go cheap. Stairs is one, 15 HP 3 phase is another.

Btw, my stairs is outside concrete so it’s not that bad. But dimensions still a problem

Unrelated, what is a big deal with those 3ph motors? Wont that lathe work with 3-5hp single phase motor?

 

[dutchgray]

There is a reason those monsters always go cheap. Stairs is one, 15 HP 3 phase is another.

Add in very low spindle speeds and no built in metric threading usually.

 

[dutchgray]

Btw, my stairs is outside concrete so it’s not that bad. But dimensions still a problem

Unrelated, what is a big deal with those 3ph motors? Wont that lathe work with 3-5hp single phase motor?

It probably would work just fine on 5hp but the big heavy cuts it was built to take so you could work efficiently and make money on the machine back in the day need all that power.

 

[Whitworth]

Btw, my stairs is outside concrete so it’s not that bad. But dimensions still a problem

Unrelated, what is a big deal with those 3ph motors? Wont that lathe work with 3-5hp single phase motor?

Probably work ok. But guessing powering the drivetrain would consume considerable HP in itself. And change or modify the motor mount and pulley.
Then add in the cost of a 5 HP motor.
Why dumb it down, in other words?

Plus everything is just bigger. Replacement parts are exorbitantly expensive. Quick change tooling is much more expensive, carbide inserts, chucks, etc.

Ultimately what are you using it for? You might find a 28 foot Pacemaker lathe, and fit it in your garage, and then spend money to power it up, and buy tooling, but end up to make little bushings or toy train wheels?

 

[katit]

Ultimately what are you using it for? You might find a 28 foot Pacemaker lathe, and fit it in your garage, and then spend money to power it up, and buy tooling, but end up to make little bushings or toy train wheels?

EXACTLY. I had 9x20 and it did all I needed. It just wasn't rigid enough to try some of the projects I wanted or imagined. It did all of the bushings and adapters I needed for car/motorcycle work. Thats why 12x40 or something like that would be all I need me think.

And I really want to learn threading and need metric. And need all kinds of feeds. Realistically, those modern import lathes will do what I need. And if I get that taiwan made one- I am sure it will last me to through my life. I'm not going to make money on it nor make big parts. All for my motorcycle/car hobby.

 

[LopezBart]

I used to have a 10" Atlas. The 15" YMZ I got has a 3phase 5 hp motor, easily if not cheaply powered by a VFD off of 30 amp 240 single phase. The new lathe weighed 8 times as much as the old one.

Ultimately what are you using it for? You might find a 28 foot Pacemaker lathe, and fit it in your garage, and then spend money to power it up, and buy tooling, but end up to make little bushings or toy train wheels?

If that's all you ever want to do with it, buy the lightweight machine. I've pushed the size limits on every machine I've owned. A built-up
crankshaft I was working on for a big steam engine took needed every bit of the swing over the carriage to line bore the cheeks welded together:

 

[Whitworth]

If I had to do it all over again, I'd just plunk down 10k on a decent import lathe, Precision Matthews, Grizzly, whoever. At that price point they're just a commodity, and get right to turning parts.
Bypass all that buying, restoring, troubleshooting, outgrowing, rinse and repeat stuff.

 

[AEAdam]

The toolbox idea is not a good one. That lathe isn’t some small bench top lathe. It’s 1100lbs and if you want to do any sort of precision work with you you are going to need more than a sheetmetal toolbox to hold it solid. The lathe itself is a decent one but for $7500 and no tooling I would be considering a tooled up used machine instead. For home use you are never going to wear it out and you can’t take a tax deduction on a depreciating value so there’s not much point in buying new. If your concern is weight down the stairs you could always disassemble the lathe and move it in pieces. Taking the headstock, tail stock, and carriage off will cut the weight significantly.

Just to be clear, it’s not the weight we are really concerned about. You could add a top to the tool box that distributed that weight. The casters could take it.

And the folks taking about strong and heavy tops are also not saying it correctly. What you need is stiffness, to prevent the base from finding resonance with vibrations created by cutting.

Tool boxes are basically 5 sided boxes. The drawer side has very little lateral stiffness. It can parallelogram.

The attachment of the casters to the base is also very much not stiff. Toolboxes are a very bad idea for a lathe or mill base.

If you want to build or buy, you want to look for how the legs attach to the top. Is that joint stiff? Is there a lower stretcher? Are the feet rigid?

 

[Steve from Socal]

The issue with getting a machine down into your basement sounds like the real concern. If you look at 'most' smallish lathes they will be 30" or less wide, perhaps a handle or lever may have to come off? The Mori clones like Webbs are also very nice lathes in that size and threading convention. They would have a cast base and require an able rigger. If your steps have access a tow truck could likely lower the machine with good control and boom out while going down.

The idea of taking a machine apart to put it in the basement is a bad idea for anything that is not a basic machine like an old SB or Atlas. The factory goes to great lengths to align the headstock and without the equipment to check your reassembly it could be a big problem. Any of the better machines are going to be heavy, in fact the more they weigh the better. That said, even a 4000 machine can be lowered into a basement intact with the right tools and people. I would suggest you find the right people before you select a machine. This will open up some options your may have dismissed, the PM lathe is OK but, as noted there are many options in your price range. If you are hiring people to move the lathe, 1000 pound or 3000 pounds is not going to be a big difference in price. This alone opens up a range of options that seem to have constrained your focus on one particular machine.

Steve

 

[Mallen]

Or scrap granite countertops...

Those are usually thinner than you would like,although you can use layers epoxied together. The thicker stuff they make tombstones from are good if you can find it. (Please don't go robbing cemeteries. If you do, don't blame me when the lathe starts bleeding) Concrete is actually a bit better than granite in that it damps vibration a little better. Its also far more readily available. Quikrete countertop mix is a good choice as it's made to be used without rebar and contains reinforcing fibers.

I'm making a new stand myself. I'm using steel from bed frames which I can get free. I'm going to make the legs by welding four pieces of angle stock salvaged from them together into a square tube. Then I'll cap the bottom ends and put an adjustable foot on it. Then weld up the stand and fill the legs with concrete. The top will have several supports across it. I will then make a plywood form and drill and tap some screw holes in the top and attack it up the bottom and sides and cast the top in place. Then when it's cute I can remove the screws and the plywood.

Then once it's all cured and ready, I'll realize I shouldn't have made it outside, but instead I should have made it in its final location because it will literally weigh a half ton and be impossible for me to move.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If I had to do it all over again, I'd just plunk down 10k on a decent import lathe, Precision Matthews, Grizzly, whoever. At that price point they're just a commodity, and get right to turning parts.
Bypass all that buying, restoring, troubleshooting, outgrowing, rinse and repeat stuff.

Grizzly.

OP they have a showroom in Missouri. Have you considered Grizzly ? You maybe able to find a deal on "scratch & dent" or showroom demo.

 

[katit]

Grizzly.

OP they have a showroom in Missouri. Have you considered Grizzly ? You maybe able to find a deal on "scratch & dent" or showroom demo.

I’ve been researching and PM preferable. Missouri is big. Visit to Grizzly is one day 400 mile trip

 

[NUTTSGT]

I’ve been researching and PM preferable. Missouri is big. Visit to Grizzly is one day 400 mile trip

Oh, I get that. I wasn't sure if you actually thought about them, sometimes, the minor stuff completely slips one's mind.

I just figured if they had something, comparable for less money and you could save on shipping, not too mention a showroom model with even more off the price.

 

[isb cornbinder]

IO had not heard of Precision Mathews until Adam Booth and Josh Topper bought them. If this lathe is good enough for them, I may be more than you will ever need. These guys are You Tube machinist Stars.

 

[katit]

Oh, I get that. I wasn't sure if you actually thought about them, sometimes, the minor stuff completely slips one's mind.

I just figured if they had something, comparable for less money and you could save on shipping, not too mention a showroom model with even more off the price.

I thought about them. But PM as said above positioned themselves as "go to" for quality hobby lathe. Many guys on YouTube use them. I am pretty sure PM probably give them a good deal to promote their equipment, but.. I still rather support small but with good reviews business vs Grizzly and alike.

Also, PM's "ultra precision" line is made in Taiwan. All those lathes made out of the same plans, but details like bearings, gears, etc could be of different quality. And PM gets good reviews.

As @isb cornbinder said, those people do projects I wouldn't even try to take on and those lathes work just fine for them.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I am not saying that PM machines are good or bad BUT, take product placement in you tube for what it is. As far as I know the machines are built like many others, the difference is they have US quality control that inspects and or fits the lathes before delivery. These are light duty machines, they are fine for the scope of work the original poster intends. Are they of the same calliber as a American Pacemaker, Lodge & Shipply or, Monarch, NO. The best Asian lathes are from Mori-Seiki and Okuma, Webb, Takisawa clones etc.

There are some fantastic small lathes made in the US, Asia and, Europe all are overkill for the OP use/needs. The Asian light duty lathes are great for a garage shop where flexibility is important. These are found in maintainence shops and garages around the world, they are ideal for simple one off jobs.

In the past I advocated for better quality machines on the used market but, I now suggest buying new. Used high precision machines are not something a buyer can evaluate from afar and, honestly these lghter new machines are ideal for many small jobs. If the OP was going to make hydraulic spools or injector pins then a more robust machine would be in order. If the OP said I want a HLV-H or Monarch 10EE then that is a whole nuther class of machine. The Asian 13X40 is a class of machine to itself, IMHO far better than a clapped out South Bend and, well supported on the net by users.

 

[katit]

Ironically just yesterday I was watching this video from not well known YouTuber, and yes, product placement is one thing, but his review sounds genuine. Not like he didn't have issues with PM, but he speaks highly of it. And projects he is doing is way above my skill level. I am even thinking to do 12x36 like he got and save some (bunch) of money for tooling.

 

[isb cornbinder]

The worst decision is to do nothing.
My list of failing to make the next higher bid is longer than the list of machine bids I won. Maybe you can get a deal if the dealer can add a milling machine to a package deal. Sure a lathe will change your shop life. A milling machine will add to the lathe experience exponentially. I was able to make components for my 84 year old Ford that otherwise may have not been possible.
This is an investment in your future shop experience. The next thing you must learn is to say no to the "Hey Man" projects that show up at your door.

 

[katit]

I have X2 hobby mill which is pretty useless. Lathe is useful, but again my use case is very primitive. At the same time I want something capable of 0.01mm precision. Guy in video above does motorcycle cylinder boring on his and that would be more than enough for me

 

[Steve from Socal]

I am sure you want a machine that can hold 0.01mm but, can YOU hold that number? The PM lathe may be a good quality Asian machine and on small light parts that number is doable, it also doable on a clapped out junker IF you are a skilled lathe hand.

 

[katit]

I was able to do that on 9x20 HF lathe but ridgidity was a problem all time. Machining bigger pieces were PITA

 

[Jswain]

I was able to do that on 9x20 HF lathe but ridgidity was a problem all time. Machining bigger pieces were PITA

Less than a half a thou on a 9x20hf lathe?

 

[katit]

Less than a half a thou on a 9x20hf lathe?

Yes, by feel and sometimes with emery paper. I am talking diameter on short parts.

 

[Boogerman]

Picking a lathe when the money is there for a quality machine is a frustrating experience. Especially if you live a long distance from cities with dealers selling them, so have to work long distance and deal with freight delivery. I'm in decision paralysis myself at the moment.

I have a decent old US lathe, fully tooled. I recently sold 4 lathes, from a 9" toolroom southbend up to a 14x40 Taiwan lathe the older equivalent of the PM or Grizzly. My intention was to buy a new Grizzly 13x40. I also looked at the PM. Grizzly includes DRO and a lot of tooling that is extra with the PM. I should have kept the camlock tooling that was with my 14x40, that would have made the decision easier, as my current chucks and collet closers are proprietary to my lathe. PM will liftgate, Grizzly won't. That makes it a challenge here, as I have no freight terminal to deliver to. I can rig and move that size lathe myself, did the 14x40 twice. But, hate to have to drive to Grizzly just to get it. PM ends up 50% more expensive once you configure it the same as the Grizzly. Is it really better? Probably, like choosing between truck brand tools and Williams Taiwan made, there's a difference, but is it worth the money?

I could make do with my current lathe, but money isn't a barrier, I can use the writeoff, and having DRO and the foot brake safety feature is a big selling point. Plus, having a new, supported machine. I have to just decide between Grizzly (good enough) and PM (maybe better, hard to really know). Or buy a better piece of US iron, and put money/time into fixing it up. Could also do just do a few more improvements to my current machine and be there. Thus, the decision paralysis.

I also want a new mill. Hard deciding between a used Bridgeport and a newer Taiwan made machine. Mills, a lot more difference in $ between Bridgeport and clone, but lower priced Bridgeports often need a lot of work. I want turnkey, not have to rebuild the machine before I use it. Same delivery problems as a lathe.

Between the mill and lathe, could be $10K to $15K difference in delivered machine costs.

So, I dither and do nothing.

 

[larry4406]

There are many folks over at Hobby-Machinest.com that have PM lathes and seem to enjoy them.

Here's one where the guy built his stand for it.

Another Pm1340gt Build

I started on this project back in September. After reading a thread by Dan (Sanddan) on another forum outlining his stand build for a 1340gt, I developed an interest in this particular machine and warmed up to the idea of building a custom stand. I really liked Dan's design and he was very...

www.hobby-machinist.com

 

[Toold_up]

So much circle jerk in this thread.

Buy what will do the projects you intend on doing. If you need something else later, you won't have a hard time unloading a used machine.

 

[AEAdam]

I have an old mill with little wear. With a mill you can compensate for wear pretty well and scraping it better than new is always a viable option.

With old lathes, the wear seems very uneven and pretty impactful. If you can’t turn a 4 or 6” cylinder accurately, I’m not really sure what you have. I’m super attracted to old south bends, but the lathes I want, the older smaller models are all pretty worn. If money was no object, I’d spring for an HVL-H.

I’m with the OP, if I was shopping for a metal lathe, I’d look for a new PM or a used Taiwan lathe like an Enco. I don’t believe grizzly is comparable.

Back on topic, if you could find any industrial table, like those with butcher block tops, and just add tightly connected shear webs to the sides, that would work. Failing that, you need gussets in the corners. Some way to stop the legs from flexing where they attach to the top. You either have a stick built house with plywood shear panels (sheathing) or you have a timberframe. You can’t have a stick frame without the shear panels (unless you are Toll Brothers).

You have 2 basics vibratory modes you need to address. The vertical mode bends the top and is reacted down the legs into the floor. A soft top would be disastrous, but thick wood will be stiff enough (MDF or flakeboard not so much). You don’t need granite or the like. The bigger problem is the lateral mode, shaking the table parallel to the top. This one is harder to react.

A little more physics since I know you all love it when we talk engineering. Softening the connection between the vibration generator (lathe in this case) and the floor isn’t good. Soft mounts kinda work in reverse, preventing shocks induced by the base, from effecting equipment (Like a car suspension).

Vibration is a wave with a frequency and an amplitude. If the base is soft, it can add its mass to the generator, increasing the amplitude as the base finds resonance. This is bad. So with any kind of vibration like this, you want the stiffest possible mount you can get. I think that’s a little counterintuitive for some people who want to use rubber to stop vibrations. Rubber helps with shocks, not vibration.