Propress - Can you mix with torch

[mobiledynamics]

Looking at the run I'm about to modify. Plan on sweating where I have easy access. The not so easy access I'm pro pressing

Riddle me this as I was just thinking about it. Let's say you have a press fitting, whether it be a 90 Elbow or a Valve. You end up need to do a repair and maybe torch the coupler and such back on. It's too -close- to the press fitting.

Any concerns with heat in this scenario and it would be highly recommendable to stick with press due to O ring damage

 

[Renegade1LI]

Why sweat any, if you have the press tool do them all, torch is last resort. We built 3 NYC schools all hvac & plumbing under 4" is pressed, over 10k joints, zero failures. If you can't go pex, pressed copper is next, no heat or sparks it's a pleasure.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I don't like pex....albit I'm okay for it on heating. Have the Uponor fittings and tooling...and I think it's great for stub ups where you make connections flush (installing a euro baseboard that is about only about 1 3/4" thick by making the connections with pex) and then working quickly to hang it onto the wall on it's cleat.

Renegade. Thx for the post. I will give it a shot with -all press- for this re-work and I guess that will be a benchmark to see what happens. All I have a Viega fittings. I do have some Apollo press valves (I'm used to using Apollo valves).....

Is the Viega the gold standard on the fittings/valves or the other brands that exist Nibco, etc are just as fine in quality on the press fittings

Renegade. Curious. Assuming the crew doing the install makes sure they chamfer ever cut . Or you may have a greenhorn just cut to size - slip and press it ? Is the install crew on-point about making sure the ends are chamfered.

I posted another thread but might as well ask since you are familiar with the Press. The fittings do have some pre-lube. For a DIY with just a few fittings , etc, worthwhile to give it a small smidge of silicone for the O Ring. The O rings or longevity of it, is what is my concern

 

[mobiledynamics]

OT, one more > Renegade. If you have a opinion on hvac and zoomlock......

 

[Bopbop]

Pro-Press is the way to go. I am a Plumbing engineer and we do alot of hospital work. In the renovation it is the only way to go. No burn permits or fire issues in the building. We have used it on copper and steel piping in plumbing, natural gas and HVAC systems with no issues. Some of these have been installed for roughly 20 years.
Viega is the gold standard and the Appollo valve are really good.
As for putting silicone on the o rings i would not do that. Verify with the fitting manufacturer if they approve or recommend any type of lube being installed on the O rings.
i have a current project with cast iron sanitary piping that the contractor used the wrong lube on the rubber gaskets. Every joint in the system was leaking within 2 weeks when they went to test the system. His lube reacted with the rubber and was causing it to crack.

 

[b-boy]

We have used it on copper and steel piping in plumbing, natural gas and HVAC systems with no issues. Some of these have been installed for roughly 20 years.

Will ProPress work on hot water baseboard systems?

 

[59 wagon man]

i use the nibco fittings and have not had any issues. our first pro press job was about 15 yrs ago . we used the fittings ad delivered with no extra lube and have not had any issues. why would you sweat the easy joints as pressing is so much easier and quicker?

 

[Renegade1LI]

The key with any o ring fitting is to make sure there are no burrs on the pipe, i have the guy’s index the pipe and fitting to make sure it’s in all the way, and when i spot check it’s a good visual. We had the manufacture give us a good training when we started and if you plan to do a lot they will come on site and go over everything. As mentioned no additional lube is required, just keep them cleaned till use.

 

[mobiledynamics]

They make press for black pipe, and the jaws for that- it's called mega press.

Wish me luck boys. About to unthread some 80-90 year Brass. Plan to cut and then just remove the stubs from the female.....

 

[mobiledynamics]

For the Pros. Just curious

- so when do you torch. Only when the RFP calls for it ?
- running water, faster installs. Sure the fittings cost more. Kurious how the #'s stack up . For the same job in PP vs. torch, which one is the cheaper bidded quote ?

 

[Bopbop]

For the Pros. Just curious

- so when do you torch. Only when the RFP calls for it ?
- running water, faster installs. Sure the fittings cost more. Kurious how the #'s stack up . For the same job in PP vs. torch, which one is the cheaper bidded quote ?

I am not a contractor but from all which I work with will tell you it all depends on the job and the installers.
We specify it in the existing hospitals we work on all the time. It reduces the issues of fumes and open flames in the building. Some of the places we are working in you can never get the water to stop flowing. In this case the tie ins are done with the small flow of water. It really saves time.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Almost made a rookie mistake. I shut the main.......and had cutters in hand ready to go gung ho. Passed by the laundry room and said, let me see if the main really closes it in full ;-) Luckily it does

That should have been the 1st thing I should have done after shutting down the main regardless.

Imagine if it didn't and I was about to cut.

 

[brewchief]

Almost made a rookie mistake. I shut the main.......and had cutters in hand ready to go gung ho. Passed by the laundry room and said, let me see if the main really closes it in full ;-) Luckily it does

That should have been the 1st thing I should have done after shutting down the main regardless.

Imagine if it didn't and I was about to cut.

The beauty of pro press is it will work with water flowing through it, it's not uncommon for us to replace a water heater and find the valves at the water meter won't shut off 100% or if you crank them down real tight trying to stop the flow they will break when you go to reopen and you can't turn the water back on. With press we just shut them off as much as possible and then press a new valve in for the water heater. I have never tried but I would bet that you could cut a fully pressurized 3/4" line and slide a valve on and press it, you would get wet but it would be doable.

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[BD1]

They were concerned about longevity with Victalic fitting gaskets. They have been around for 70 plus years.
We've been using propress for 20 years.
Remember to insert tube and make ring with Sharpie. Full inserteration is the key.

We've done thousands of joints for hot water, chilled water, compressed air, and condenser water.
It's an amazing process.


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[Renegade1LI]

The beauty of pro press is it will work with water flowing through it, it's not uncommon for us to replace a water heater and find the valves at the water meter won't shut off 100% or if you crank them down real tight trying to stop the flow they will break when you go to reopen and you can't turn the water back on. With press we just shut them off as much as possible and then press a new valve in for the water heater. I have never tried but I would bet that you could cut a fully pressurized 3/4" line and slide a valve on and press it, you would get wet but it would be doable.

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That's where the freeze machine comes,lol I've taken a bath a few times, couldn't do that with solder.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I have never tried but I would bet that you could cut a fully pressurized 3/4" line and slide a valve on and press it, you would get wet but it would be doable.

In my world, negative.

Cutting Brass. End to End threaded.
The plan was to cut and leave stubs.
Remove Stubs off the Theaded Ends
Then adapt/press from there.

Definitely not a quick cut and press but sure wish it wash , ha

 

[mobiledynamics]

Bopbop. You were spot on. I called Viega. They said no lube. If it's dirty from just being a bucket in struction with sheetrock dust, etc, they said just give it a rinse but in no instance add -extra- lube

Just curious from a joe asking a pro. Lube for no hub ? What system

 

[nadogail]

I guess I will start shopping for a press or a plumber who has one.

With only 7 houses to take care of, I will have to shop carefully.

 

[mobiledynamics]

The Milwaukee M12 is sweet for up to 1" CU (rated for 1 1/4") but many state it will not do 1 1/4 well. Pair it up with the Ridgid C1 Jaws (it's costly but ahmazing). It's not a fixed head. Die goes on fitting, press can be oriented any way you want due to the design on the C1 die system.

Go with a different platform (m18) if you want the extra doo dads of gas and stuff.
For me, I went the M12 route as the C1 Jaws fit that platform.

 

[mobiledynamics]

59 Wagon Man. On the reference of Nibco, on the M/F adapters, seems like Viega is making them in Bronze. Nibco seems to prefer making these in complete copper. For my own wiki, any preferential advantage between the 2 for said material/application -?

 

[59 wagon man]

i use nibco as that is what the supply house i use carries but if I'm stuck and have to go to ferguson they carry viega and theyre about 30% more with no advantage from what i see other than lightning my pocket.
here is a tip if you never done press before
fit the pipe into the fitting and using a sharpie marker make a line on the pipe to show that it is seated into the fitting far enough. pressing seems to have a tendency to push the pipe out of the joint just far enough to leak if you dont have sufficient depth and there is no repressing if the pipe is not deep enough into the socket. cut it out and redo it is the only way

 

[59 wagon man]

i have the m18 kit up to 4" copper and also use the ridgid snap cutter attachment with it for cast iron. i was also part of a viega survey using their copy of the ridgid tool and found it to be more cumbersome to use than the m18

 

[59 wagon man]

i can solder in a smaller area then i can press. an example would be someone yanked the garden hose and snapped off the stubout and hose bibb for their garden hose. i have used a mini tubing cutter by chipping a small hole in the concrete and soldering in a new piece , could never fit the press tool that close to the wall without a big hole. othertimes i have unsweat the broken stub with just a tiny piece of it sticking out i could grab with a needle nose pliers and then resolder a new stubout.
as far as cost the press fittings avg 5X the solder fittings but the time savings can be huge as the pipe size increases . a 2" solder joint takes probably 2-3 minutes per joint a press joint is under 15seconds

 

[allinon72]

i use nibco as that is what the supply house i use carries but if I'm stuck and have to go to ferguson they carry viega and theyre about 30% more with no advantage from what i see other than lightning my pocket.
here is a tip if you never done press before
fit the pipe into the fitting and using a sharpie marker make a line on the pipe to show that it is seated into the fitting far enough. pressing seems to have a tendency to push the pipe out of the joint just far enough to leak if you dont have sufficient depth and there is no repressing if the pipe is not deep enough into the socket. cut it out and redo it is the only way

Hold a Nibco and Viega in both hands, you can see the quality difference, especially with brass Viega. That's not to say there's anything wrong with the Nibco, but a Viega is just the higher quality option.

 

[allinon72]

I can only speak from my own experience in the carwash industry (i.e. lots of copper plumbing), nearly all of our failures come from sweated copper pipes, usually on tee's. Sweated pipes don't handle vibrations well at all - press fittings seem to handle this a lot better. Not applicable in a residential environment but speaks to reliability none the less.
The ONLY issues we run into is pressing onto old pipe that has thinned out on the inside.

Simply put, the only plumbers I see still sweating are the diehards, and I guess there's nothing wrong with that. But I would not think twice about plumbing my entire house with press fittings if PEX wasn't an option.

 

[59 wagon man]

a service and repair plumber can not rely only on press or he will be dead in the water

 

[mobiledynamics]

I saw the snap cutter. It looked cumbersome depending on where you had access on the chain and then having to mount the press tooling to it to actuate it

 

[mobiledynamics]

Thx for the sharpie tip. I wasn't planing to do the sharpie just for aesthetics. Have seen lots of videos saying one should reference mark it. Your post sums up why now....cause it may have the potential to want to shift as you press

 

[allinon72]

a service and repair plumber can not rely only on press or he will be dead in the water

Who said that?

 

[mobiledynamics]

I'm not a plumber . Just a Joe and Not a Pro. A joe that happens to have the tooling

I must be a DinoSaur. Cause I was really under the impression sweat was superior if given the same install......more long term, looks cleaner when you walk into the mechanical room, etc Kinda like how I look at weld jobs and look at the work, I do the same when I look at the mechanical room - the runs, the consistency of the connections, etc

 

[59 wagon man]

Simply put, the only plumbers I see still sweating are the diehards, and I guess there's nothing wrong with that. But I would not think twice about plumbing my entire house with press fittings if PEX wasn't an option.[/QUOTE]

so i guess no young whippersnappers do service and repair plumbing

 

[Renegade1LI]

I'm not a plumber . Just a Joe and Not a Pro. A joe that happens to have the tooling

I must be a DinoSaur. Cause I was really under the impression sweat was superior if given the same install......more long term, looks cleaner when you walk into the mechanical room, etc Kinda like how I look at weld jobs and look at the work, I do the same when I look at the mechanical room - the runs, the consistency of the connections, etc[/QUOTE

FYI the press fittings & pipe both have a 50 year warranty, most public works here in NY spec pressed fittings. The only time the torch comes out is when we have to braze any 4" or 6", otherwise everything is pressed. As far as looks, you never see solder drips on pressed fittings.

 

[nadogail]

After considering how much even a small fire would cost, I have come to the conclusion that my future plumbing work will include more SharkBite fittings and I will now seriously look into acquiring press fitting capabilities.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I really must be a dinosaur. My 1st house - we kept alot of antique aspects of it and on the plumbing side, I was saving the brass, cutting it down to size, rethreading, just keeping it all in brass if I could. (lead wasn't really on my wiki of radar at that time). Brass just seem so much more substantial in material to copper, so it was what I tried to keep as long as I had it around......and then transitioned to copper whenever I ran out !

 

[59 wagon man]

sharkbites or ptc fittings have the same limitation in a way as press fittings , if there is not enough of a stub sticking out the sharkbite will leak. same as above with the hose bibb whereas you don't need as big a hole as the press tool requires you still need a longer stubout then sweating and it must be pipe not a fitting

 

[mobiledynamics]

since we got some pros here and SB has gone huge.....with all sorts of SB valves, washing machine outlet boxes, the works....where is your stance on SB.

I've got a decent stash of SB caps, that I use when I'm mucking around in rough ends and such before the final finish is installed etc. Are you guys --okay-- with it in walls in this current day and age

 

[59 wagon man]

the only time other than a cap when i think a sharkbite makes a better connection is when going from a pvc pipe to a copper pipe such as in the water main to the main shutoff . the old way was a male to female adapters but the male threads seem to break a lot whereas the sharkbite is pipe to pipe

 

[allinon72]

Simply put, the only plumbers I see still sweating are the diehards, and I guess there's nothing wrong with that. But I would not think twice about plumbing my entire house with press fittings if PEX wasn't an option.

so i guess no young whippersnappers do service and repair plumbing[/QUOTE]

There’s a difference between new installation work and repair work. New installations are all press. Service work is press unless press can’t be done.

 

[BD1]

When I was an apprentice, we welded everything in a mechanical room. I'm talking 6" pipe and up.
As time went on, chiller connections were Victalic OR welded both for chilled and condenser water. Victaulic was great being able to unbolt vic couplings and remove in small easier to handle pieces.
Victaulic became pretty common in mechanical rooms especially for condenser water.
We did use vic on chilled water sometimes.
Pipe fitting Insulation was more costly because of the extra work to cover. Another drawback were the size of the finished insulated fittings, they were huge.
So when installing with Vic you needed to allow additional room for insulting.
We did many 4" propress installations.
Talk about $$$$ ? It was nothing to $4,000.00 in fittings setting on a cart.
You don't want to may mistakes when fittings are $200 or $300 each.


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[mobiledynamics]

Last and final question....I hope

I still prefer hard pipe for bathroom/exposed fixtures. I like it -it's a nicer aesthetic to me.

Kitchen/Utility/Cabinets 5/8 Compression 1 Way, 2 Way Dahl Valves for me

Am I a DinoSaur for liking hard piped ******* and cast brass shutoffs/p traps for exposed applications. They don't make nice heavy chrome shutoffs in ball though - just a regular stem . Is this still somewhat of a plumbing norm