protect the safe against pry bar

[PoorOwner]

I am thinking of putting an angle iron against a safe like in my picture, safe is bolted down although it is sitting on plywood.
not a 100% but the idea is make it less easy for jamming a pry bar or at least slow things down. (I know, if they want it... given enough time.. etc etc)

1) do you see anyway this actually compromises the security?

2) how can I make the screws or lag bolts more secure. Maybe cover it up with epoxy so you can no longer fit a socket over. if bolts located less than the stroke length of a sawzall may make it hard to use. But sawzall could get under unless I epoxy the bottom of the iron as well.

Thanks I know there is a lot of security experience on here.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I am thinking of putting an angle iron against a safe like in my picture, safe is bolted down although it is sitting on plywood.
not a 100% but the idea is make it less easy for jamming a pry bar or at least slow things down. (I know, if they want it... given enough time.. etc etc)

1) do you see anyway this actually compromises the security?

2) how can I make the screws or lag bolts more secure. Maybe cover it up with epoxy so you can no longer fit a socket over. if bolts located less than the stroke length of a sawzall may make it hard to use. But sawzall could get under unless I epoxy the bottom of the iron as well.

Thanks I know there is a lot of security experience on here.

What will keep them from prying the angle iron out of the floor too?

Is there any way you could have the bolts that secure the safe to the floor and wall be through bolts with backing plates, no way to pry them out unless they break the lumber it is bolted through. Some people put a few hundred pounds of shot in the bottom of thier safe as well to make it too much to manage moving.

If you really don't want people stealing what is in your safe, is there any way you can hide the safe. thieves can't steal things they can't find! If you could wall that safe in, or have it in a secret room, they would never know it was there.

It always amazes me when I see people with the big browning safe proudly displayed in thier den. Why don't they just put a sign up asking for a home invasion!

Chris

 

[Lassen Forge]

Big problem - whats to stop them from unbolting the angle iron?

You need to bolt the safe to the floor - and to the backwall, and sidewall if possible - into structural members (Studs, floor joists, etc.) from inside the safe.

Chris is dead on right - you want the safe *hidden* from view. False wall, in a closet, sheetrock enclosure in the garage, something that doesn't scream "Big Safe with Valuables HERE!!!". My folks did a home remod, they had a "built-in" bookshelf in a back corner of their house in a somewhat hidden hallway that, if you knew how, would swing open on concealed hinges (and no, it wasn't a latch on a bookshelf - thieves know that trick well) to reveal their safe. We could get into it in about 5 seconds... if you didn't know, you'd tear the wall out first.

 

[404]

What will keep them from prying the angle iron out of the floor too?

Is there any way you could have the bolts that secure the safe to the floor and wall be through bolts with backing plates, no way to pry them out unless they break the lumber it is bolted through. Some people put a few hundred pounds of shot in the bottom of thier safe as well to make it too much to manage moving.

If you really don't want people stealing what is in your safe, is there any way you can hide the safe. thieves can't steal things they can't find! If you could wall that safe in, or have it in a secret room, they would never know it was there.

It always amazes me when I see people with the big browning safe proudly displayed in thier den. Why don't they just put a sign up asking for a home invasion!

Chris

While I agree that hiding is the better choice, maybe those safes are full of cinder blocks and and an air burst phosphorus incendiary that goes off when the safe is pried open by thugs?

One can hope and dream, anyways.

Regards,
404

 

[rsanter]

You can grind the angle iron edge on a bevel to the ground to make it harder to get something under it.
Carrage bolts all the way through the floor

Bob

 

[Jay Sco]

+1 on hiding it, which I still haven't done. It's in the garage, right next to the torch and sawsall.

 

[Professur]

The only secure safe is one that doesn't look like a safe. A section of 4" ABS with caps stuck end up in your basement sump looks like just another piece of plumbing.

 

[wagzilla]

+1 on hiding it, which I still haven't done. It's in the garage, right next to the torch and sawsall.

I love it when someone leaves all the tools you need to brake something open!! why not just leave the keys and the combo
sorry I was just thinking if only I had a torch most beople call me to see if I can open it they lost the combo


James

 

[Hpozzuoli]

My safe weighs 700lbs empty. With all the **** in it I am probably around 1600lbs. Not much going to be moving it.

Assuming it's a large gun safe just lag it thru the cement (if in basement) or lag thru sub floor (if on main level). Once it's full it's not going anywhere and if it does it will not be quick or un noticed. Took 4 people to get my empty safe in my basement. That's with an appliance handtruck and struggling for 40mins.

 

[-Brent-]

The last one I installed we bolted it through the floor then ran 2x10 blocking in the way of the security nuts. If a thief wanted this thing, they'd need a little time. It was secured on three different planes. It'd take less time to cut all of the joists, studs, and flooring than mess with the hardware securing it. Then they'd have to figure out how to get it out... it was installed before the walls, it wouldn't go through a door the way it was situated.

 

[PoorOwner]

Do you guys lock up your sawzall, circ saw, pry bars and such? I think it is a good idea. Do I need another safe for such tools?

 

[A**holes Garage]

Do you guys lock up your sawzall, circ saw, pry bars and such? I think it is a good idea. Do I need another safe for such tools?

I have a 1100 lb (empty) safe in the garage. Yes, when we vacation, I detach the Oxy/Acetylene torch head and put it inside the safe.

if the thieves want to go at it with an angle head, sawzall or pry bar, more power to them.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you have a smaller safe without a provision to secure it to the floor from the inside, I figured an angle iron frame might work. A simple frame of angle iron welded together that the safe could fit down into. Instead of the flats on the floor being on the outside like the OP shows, I'd put them on the inside. This leaves no access to the lags or carriage bolts except from the bottom, none if it's a concrete basement floor. Once it's lagged in place, set the safe into the frame, then weld the safe to the frame.

 

[fivespdcat]

All this work to lag bolt a safe to the floor? Smart thief just cuts the floor and takes everything with them...

 

[dowmace]

If on a concrete floor 4 7/8" wedge anchors in the floor through the bottom of the safe. If you can prybar that up I'm impressed.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Hopefully, you have an alarm system, and hopefully you don't live where it will take the cops two hours to reach your house.

Put a electrical box in, or on, the wall behind your safe and wire it to your alarm system as a individual zone. Tell your alarm company that it is a "SAFE INTRUSION" alarm and that they need to tell the responding police what it is when they make their notification.

Then take a short section of 24 gauge wire, or smaller, and make a loop to complete the alarm zone circuit, with the loop firmly attached to the back of your safe. That way, if a bad guy moves your safe, it will break the loop and trip the alarm system.

Be sure that the zone is "supervised". ( if you don't know what that means, you shouldn't be doing this by yourself. )

Make sure that the safe can't be moved very far without breaking that wire loop.

Don't tell your friends/enemies about this, as you can not tell who they might tell about it. Most bad guys, even the ones on here, won't remember it, and even if they do, if the loop is short enough AND properly supervised, they can't defeat it.

I am presuming that your alarm panel has been properly installed and doing something simple, like cutting your telephone wire, won't prevent it from communicating with the central station.

Although a couple of very loud siren/horns ( one inside and one outside ) will not deter a burglar who is determined and knows that he has plenty of time to complete his act, it will scare away most of the amateurs.




.






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[raiderhillbilly]

Just put LoJack and wheels on it. That way they wont wreck the place stealing it and you can go kick their door in.

 

[Cyberbear]

Whatever you decide, if using bolts for security, weld the bolt heads in place. Rather than separate underneath plates for each bolt, use a continuous piece of hefty steel. My largest safe came from a jewelry store and they put proximity switches in place for a security alarm, so if the safe is moved or the door opened, the loud alarm is activated.

 

[Fixnair]

Instead of bolting it down with hex head bolts use pentagonal head bolts. Five sided bolt heads require a special wrench. Your regular tool for a hex will not fit.
They are hard to find but they do make them. Utility companies use term to thwart theft of their equipment.
Lots if good ideas here. Great discussion.

 

[dfndr]

Is safe on cement slab then on plywood or is it just bolted to plywood sub floor? Is it a real safe or just a Residential Security Container with sides that a fire ax can penetrate? Tell me that and I'll give you best ideas for securing.

 

[404]

All this work to lag bolt a safe to the floor? Smart thief just cuts the floor and takes everything with them...

If they were smart they would be politicians.

 

[vision8]

Allen head cap screws are made in hardened steel; then fill allen slot with epoxy. But any professional will get what they want unless you use a 240 Volt deterrent system which may be slightly illegal but goes the job.
!! Get a bigger dog !!

 

[Shadowdog500]

Here is some good info on gun safes. http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-theft-protection/

They can't steal what thay can't find!

Chris

 

[tdkkart]

There's not one thing in my life that I want to keep that bad.
Everything is insured, replaceable, and most importantly used. If somebody steals it, so much the better, cuz now they've got my used **** and I get new stuff.

 

[greenbikemike]

There's not one thing in my life that I want to keep that bad.
Everything is insured, replaceable, and most importantly used. If somebody steals it, so much the better, cuz now they've got my used **** and I get new stuff.

O.k......so now a thief has a gun.....but that o.k. with you because you can get a new one? I think if you have guns,you should try to keep them safe and secure so the low life that steals it,dosen't use it on..... you,your family or....?
I hope you get the idea.... a simple thief is now an "armed thief"....My .02

greenbikemike

 

[Shadowdog500]

There's not one thing in my life that I want to keep that bad.
Everything is insured, replaceable, and most importantly used. If somebody steals it, so much the better, cuz now they've got my used **** and I get new stuff.

O.k......so now a thief has a gun.....but that o.k. with you because you can get a new one? I think if you have guns,you should try to keep them safe and secure so the low life that steals it,dosen't use it on..... you,your family or....?
I hope you get the idea.... a simple thief is now an "armed thief"....My .02

greenbikemike

+1!!!!

The Main reason I lock up and hide my guns is so a criminal can't use them. I know I can get another gun, but My main goal is to keep a gun out of the hands of a criminal.

I've heard that a lot of the more savvy pro burglars won't touch a gun even if they find one in your house. If they do it raises the charges against them to a whole new level.

Chris

 

[Shadowdog500]

While I agree that hiding is the better choice, maybe those safes are full of cinder blocks and and an air burst phosphorus incendiary that goes off when the safe is pried open by thugs?

One can hope and dream, anyways.

Regards,
404

Never thought of it before, but I have a safe in my shop full of nothing but powder kegs for reloading along with loaded ammo. I also have welding and cutting equipment in the same shop.

That could end badly for someone.

Chris

 

[tdkkart]

O.k......so now a thief has a gun.....but that o.k. with you because you can get a new one? I think if you have guns,you should try to keep them safe and secure so the low life that steals it,dosen't use it on..... you,your family or....?
I hope you get the idea.... a simple thief is now an "armed thief"....My .02

Sorry, no guns here. NOTHING against them, my father and brother are big gun people, in fact my brother is an academy firearms instructor, and his teenage son is well on his way to being a very good competition marksman. I've been considering it lately, just haven't jumped yet.

Question though, when the time comes when I need a firearm in my home, just exactly how much time will the bad guy allow me to retrieve my weapon from the mega-fortified safe??

So far the biggest threat I've encountered in my neighborhood is the occasional car load of Jehovah's Witnesses.

To each his own...........

 

[Pate]

Being in the lock business has allowed me to see what works as what is a bad idea when it comes to safes and security. The best option is to bolt the safe to the floor and the wall. It's also a great idea to mount it in a corner. Bolting both sides to the walls will eliminate the pry bar issue. I've never seen a safe pulled off a wall and floor bolt job if done correctly. Thieves that rob "normal" houses don't stick around to open or steal safes. They want quick cash and jewelry that's easy to carry and sell.

 

[PelicanPines]

I did a wall safe... when I was planning it my first thought was... chain saw the wall and **** carry it away. Sooooo. I put 4 pieces of 3/4 inch rebar in the walls and attached them to the studs. Two going horizontal, two going vertical. The horizontals actually go thru the studs and stick out 5 inches on either side of the stud.

My suggestion for you would be to try and put backer plates wherever you bolt it down. Make the backer plate much longer than the safe is wide.

If you make the protection easily visible or accessible... it kinda tells someone where to attack it.

 

[dowmace]

Sorry, no guns here. NOTHING against them, my father and brother are big gun people, in fact my brother is an academy firearms instructor, and his teenage son is well on his way to being a very good competition marksman. I've been considering it lately, just haven't jumped yet.

Question though, when the time comes when I need a firearm in my home, just exactly how much time will the bad guy allow me to retrieve my weapon from the mega-fortified safe??

So far the biggest threat I've encountered in my neighborhood is the occasional car load of Jehovah's Witnesses.

To each his own...........

You keep most of the collection in the safe and a handgun or shotgun near the bedroom and preferably somewhere hidden near the front entrance.

 

[Ginmn]

For the common bolting to the floor, I've gathered, wedge anchors are the way to go.

I've never used wedge anchors before. My concrete isn't in bad shape (40+ years old), but to prevent cracks what do I do?

If I drill out the floor to accept for the wedges, is there some method to prevent the cracks running from the drilled holes? Is it even correct to think that drilling might cause future cracks? If yes… is there a better way?

What can be done to keep from accelerating slab cracking as a result of drilling for anchors?

Don't want to be too long, but do you just put your safe right on the concrete? Keep in mind I've got a 40+ year old slab. Summer time it sweats. Should I use a piece of plastic or plywood?

Thanks

 

[BFBOB]

alarm system as a individual zone. Tell your alarm company that it is a "SAFE INTRUSION" alarm and that they need to tell the responding police what it is when they make their notification.

>>>>ALL zones should always be identified at the CS!

Then take a short section of 24 gauge wire, or smaller, and make a loop to complete the alarm zone circuit, with the loop firmly attached to the back of your safe. That way, if a bad guy moves your safe, it will break the loop and trip the alarm system.

>>>>An old trick, the trap wire. We protect A/C units this way, running a simple loop out to it along with the T-stat control wire. Secure the wire to the pad it sits on. Moving it breaks the wire; so does cutting the lines.

Be sure that the zone is "supervised". ( if you don't know what that means, you shouldn't be doing this by yourself. )

>>>>Yes. EOL resistors go at the FAR end of the line.

I am presuming that your alarm panel has been properly installed and doing something simple, like cutting your telephone wire, won't prevent it from communicating with the central station.

>>>>Proper installation doesn't do it. Proper equipment is the issue. Cell communicator is the best, easily added to most modern systems. Failing that, many can be programmed to sound the sirens on phone line interruption when the system is armed (a poor second, but better than nothing). You can also hide the actual phone line entry equipment, leaving a dummy interface in plain view. Buried service also helps if it enters the house underground; most Telcos won't do this.
.

Good luck!

 

[rlitman]

Allen head cap screws are made in hardened steel; then fill allen slot with epoxy.

Better yet, hammer a ball bearing into the hex.

At my last job we had a fire safe. It didn't hold valuables, but held computer tapes. Considering the value to the business, and the fact that two guys on a lift-gate truck were easily able to deliver it (it was permanently mounted on wheels too), we did the following:

I bolted a pair of angle iron brackets to the slab with wedge bolts. One on the left side, and one on the right. BUT I mounted them backwards, so the bold heads ended up under the safe. We slid the safe between the brackets once they were bolted down, and then welded the safe to the brackets. Years later when it was time to move, we ground out the welds and then slid the safe out. Doing it this way, there were no brackets to trip on, and no exposed bolts.
The other option would be to weld the bolt heads to the bracket.

 

[shooting4life]

It is not just the pry bar on the floor you have to worry about, it is people using leverage at the top of the safe to rock back and forth until it defeats the bolts, that is why it is so important to attach the safe to the floor and the wall. I also built a wood cabinet around my safe so that when the garage door is open you cannot see the safe from the street. Keeping the safe hidden is the most important aspect. This also gives another layer of defense to slow down the criminals.

It is easy to move a large safe when you are not worried about damaging the area around you.

 

[buddyboy]

only thing you can do is add more time and hope they give up.

i leave out things that look like they are valuable but are really not worth anything.

I hope they just grab this stuff first, then after 5 or 10 minutes of trying to go after the harder to obtain items they give up satisfied with what they think are valuables.

given that I would:

bolt your safe to the wall and floor. that way they can't tip it over and use an ax or splitting maul to hack into the top or side.

buy 2 or 3 un-serviceable hand guns and make sure they can not be repaired... they need to look like they are worth money. leave them near the safe along with 20- one dollar bills.

they'll grab those guns and the cash then

they'll just hack at the front of it with an ax which will add 10 more minutes, after which you'll have a chance they are lazy and crack hungry and will leave with just your bait.

good luck