Protecting electronics when on generator power

[Jackfre]

Pretty much everything has pcb controls today. In my home I have the Rinnai tankless WH & DV wall furnace, three mini-splits, etc. Everything is modulating and require clean power to operate and survive. What is necessary to protect electronics while on generator power? I am looking at an EU7000is Honda generator. 7kw is more than I need as I would run only one of the mini-splits at a time. The tankless draws 40W when operating, the WF 33-56w, the mini-split in cooling is 830w, fridge is 1.25 kw/day and the well pump is 1/2 hp. All the lights are led.
The 5000w non-inverter Honda is about half the price of the 7kw inverter model. Given the cost and hassle of popped circuit boards I'm thinking the inverter is the way to go, but what do you think?
On background, in this lovely high fire area we live in, PG&E, that lovely company, is now authorized to shut down power if they think high winds are likely. Power will probably be off for days at a time. It seems kinda silly, but the fellow renting across the street lived in Paradise. He lost his home, business and 32 rental units. It is no longer uncommon in the West.

 

[Old Man Roger]

I know I've run a computer on a Honda inverter style generator for 10 days with no issues. They are super efficient too.

 

[Bretny]

There are other people who make reliable generators. The problem with all gas generators is there gas. Gas goes bad.

 

[Falcon67]

We run our race trailer on an EU7000is. That includes the laptop computers, weather station, hotspot, etc. No issues.

 

[Ing3018]

I've been thinking along the same lines as you except that I figured i would get 2 2500W inverter units and operate them depending on load demand. I also am thinking that I would adapt them to run on propane and or natural gas so as to minimize the fuel spoilage / storage problem.

 

[slow]

I've been thinking along the same lines as you except that I figured i would get 2 2500W inverter units and operate them depending on load demand. I also am thinking that I would adapt them to run on propane and or natural gas so as to minimize the fuel spoilage / storage problem.

The main issue is the 240 volt load requirements and no small/cheap inverter generators support them. If you are all 120 volt, that would make sense, either 2 EU2200s or the EU3000.

I purchased the EU7000is for a backup to power part of our server room at work. I don't have any concerns using that generator for anything listed by the original poster.

 

[Jazzman442]

Just make sure you have a good generator. If you have computers that are sensitive then get a battery on backup and run it off that and leave it plunged in. I have a lot of customers that do this.

 

[Mattlt]

Get a UPS. That has all the electronics you need to smooth out the incoming power, and will provide you some time to get the generator started when the utility pulls the plug.

 

[Keithinsc]

+1 on the UPS. We have lots of issues with lightning. All our critical computers here at work are on UPSs, no issue. Unless the roof leaks on the computer....

 

[Bretny]

UPS is a good idea. Prob saves you $4k on a generator.

 

[nafterclifen]

As others stated, you can protect electronics with a UPS if you will be using a non-inverter generator. This is what I do.

 

[BruceMc]

Don't even consider anything except an inverter gen unit. In my old position, all my remote field camps relied solely on Honda EUs to run our electronics (scientific grade hydroacoustic gear) 24/7 for up to 4 months at a time. The Hondas never caused any problems with anything plugged into them.

 

[Walter_TA]

Do a combination of solar and battery. That would give you good clean power and save some money in the long run. Have auto switch over when the power goes out.

 

[slow]

most UPS have bad power output, unless it is a higher end pure sine unit, but most electronics are not that sensitive.

My laptop power supply will take 100-240 volts 50-60hz.

I do like the battery/inverter setup, and have a small setup for myself, but mainly so I can run the fridge for a few hours and recharge the battery bank using the generator. As a side benefit, it does act as a power filter with a pure sine inverter as the output and keeps it quieter. Depending on well or other high power needs it may be an option. Being in CA with crazy expensive power, it may make economic sense for solar and battery as well. I have cheap $0.089 kwh electric and no time of use metering so I can't justify more than my little "200 watt" solar setup just for proof of concept.

 

[SGKent]

the answer depends on the type of equipment you are trying to protect. A laptop for example has a power supply that puts out a constant voltage of say 19V. It has a battery. A power surge or spike doesn't get past the power supply to the laptop. Same for a smart phone or a router etc. They all have independent power supplies. But some circuit boards and controllers don't have the luxury of such a filtered stable power supply. As a result, a surge can pass thru to their circuit board. Even adding a good quality surge protector can help keep those spikes down that harm things. You might have noticed for example that newer monitors and computers don't get affected by surges like the older ones did. It is all in the power supply in the unit.

 

[Walter_TA]

The electronics to watch out for are the mini splits, TVs, Computer with no battery, stuff like that.

 

[Bruce 993 SEA]

The problem with all gas generators is there gas. Gas goes bad.

For this reason, I am going to go with a Champion dual fuel so I can use a propane tank.

 

[firebirdparts]

I run non-inverter, take no precautions, and have no problems. FWIW. I don't know how the inverters compare.

 

[ishiboo]

most UPS have bad power output, unless it is a higher end pure sine unit, but most electronics are not that sensitive.

My laptop power supply will take 100-240 volts 50-60hz.

I do like the battery/inverter setup, and have a small setup for myself, but mainly so I can run the fridge for a few hours and recharge the battery bank using the generator. As a side benefit, it does act as a power filter with a pure sine inverter as the output and keeps it quieter. Depending on well or other high power needs it may be an option. Being in CA with crazy expensive power, it may make economic sense for solar and battery as well. I have cheap $0.089 kwh electric and no time of use metering so I can't justify more than my little "200 watt" solar setup just for proof of concept.

This.

Most electronics are bridge rectified and filtered to the point where the input waveform doesn't even matter. Some furnaces had issues with like the flame sensors or something on generator power. I run ALL my stuff on a cheap HF generator.

Most UPSes you buy as a consumer do NOTHING to filter the power - they're called offline UPSes. They just pass the unclean power through until it goes out, and then they start inverting - often with a less than ideal waveform. You only gain basic surge protection... although importantly also brownout protection which can be an issue on a generator, especially when it shuts off unexpectedly.

An online UPS actually charges the batteries with incoming power, and is running a better inverter off them all the time. So the majority of the fluctuations that an offline unit passes through are non-existent with an online UPS.

 

[Jackfre]

I had every intention of buying a propane generator. Prices on underground LP tanks are through the roof. I priced a 500 underground at multiple locations and they are coming in at minimum of $3k. Propane is out, sadly. I will have to manage the fuel. It seems that the inverter is the way to go. Thanks for the excellent input!

 

[MattT]

I had every intention of buying a propane generator. Prices on underground LP tanks are through the roof. I priced a 500 underground at multiple locations and they are coming in at minimum of $3k. Propane is out, sadly. I will have to manage the fuel. It seems that the inverter is the way to go. Thanks for the excellent input!

So your tankless is nat gas? Apparently the EU7000s can be converted to run on it. Or you might be able to do a small whole house nat gas generator for the price of the Honda??

https://genconnexdirect.net/honda_generator_propane_kits.htm#xl_EU7000is:32KIT

 

[HotelMike]

This.

Most electronics are bridge rectified and filtered to the point where the input waveform doesn't even matter. Some furnaces had issues with like the flame sensors or something on generator power. I run ALL my stuff on a cheap HF generator.

I always cringe when I see the sensitive electronics marketing slogan. Pretty much anything with a switching power supply won’t care what waveform it is getting. AC motors are more sensitive than most computers and chargers. A vacuum tube amplifier or some other analog device that has a transformer only as power supply would qualify as sensitive.

A non inverter generator would provide a cleaner sine wave in my opinion. The benefit of the inverter is reduced noise and longer run time when on lower load.

 

[Corsair4360]

One thing to consider with a gasoline generator is what type of gasoline to feed it. I go out of my way to find no ethanol gasoline for my '68 Barracuda, our Honda generator, all of my yard tools and well as my two chainsaws. The fuel I use stays good for at least a year. Ethanol containing fuel is not stable for long....

 

[JerryB]

In the face of PG&E's threatened power shutdowns of up to 5 days, we just bought a small Firman (3650W running / 4500W peak) generator to replace our nearly 40 year-old 5KW B&S powered Generac. The reasons for selecting Firman are the remote start, and the fact that it is sold through Costco.

The first Firman arrived with significant shipping damage to the bolted on shipping supports! In fact, one of them was actually ripped off the frame.

Costco replaced it without even asking what the problem was! Can't beat that!

(Edit: Firman also quickly offered a replacement. We took the Costco offer because their store is only 30 miles away. Both companies have stood behind their offerings, and provided great support.)

Our only use is to power a refrigerator and small freezer (each only requiring power for a couple of sessions per day), along with charging our cell phones and computers.

As others have pointed out, the small power supplies for most of these items are pretty immune to frequency and voltage fluctuations.

Been out of town for a couple of days, so am looking forward to seeing whether the second Firman arrived intact!

 

[volleyball]

There is not 1 right answer. And you get what you pay for as far as protection devices. A higher end UPS will filter the incoming power. You want initial protection and then device protection to do what you can to reduce device failure.

 

[rick carpenter]

I suggest contacting the mfr of each device (and/or green/smart home people or a nearby college electrical engineering dept) you think may need protection that doesn't have it's own power supply and see what they say. For those devices, add high end UPSs that you can manually switch to be fed by one or more small inverters. Might be expen$ive though.

A green/smart home forum might be a place for answers as well.

 

[johnnyradiant]

Natural Gas is a good way to go for a generator except most people on the west coast wanting an emergency generator kinda shoot themselves in the foot going with natural gas 'cause a potential emergency need would be post earthquake which could also take out the supply of gas. It sure makes fuel management only a couple words most of the time though.

 

[NIS240SHU]

Electronics can certainly be affected by dirty power, whether it's coming from the utility, a generator or another power source. There are different types of power problems, but the most common I've seen in my line of work, where I'm dealing with 3-phase generators, is frequency fluctuations due to a bad governor. Aside from that, generators are not my strong suit; UPSs are.

An "online" or "double-conversion" UPS that's typical in the data center environment uses a rectifier continuously to convert the utility or generator power from an AC waveform to DC power. It's putting all of the DC power on one bus, called the DC link, whether that's coming from a single-phase or three-phase source. From there, the inverter uses the DC voltage to create a new, "fake" AC waveform using pulse width modulation (PWM), usually using IGBTs. This waveform looks like a bit like a staircase up and down instead of a smooth sine wave, but the wave is smoothed out by capacitor banks and inductors.

The “under-your-desk” UPSs are what we call forward transfer units, where the utility power is provided directly to the downstream equipment until there’s a utility failure, at which point the batteries will power the inverter, which will in turn power your equipment. If you’re on generator power and using one of these units, you’re not getting any benefit. The UPS will see the generator power as an adequate source and provide it straight to your equipment.

My recommendation would be to install a whole-house surge protector on your main panel, then also use receptacles with built-in SPDs at the locations where you have sensitive electronics (fridge, computers, home theater, furnace, etc…

If you have the cash to go all out, get a small double-conversion UPS and don’t forget to replace the batteries every 3-5 years.

Happy to answer any UPS related questions if I can. I normally work on 3-phase systems from 8kW up to 1.2MW.

Cheers!

Helder

 

[Jackfre]

Excellent education on UPS'. Thank you. It represents another topic where "I don't know what I don't know." There seem to be so many of them...?
I am not on NG. Propane is the only gas option and as I said, I am dropping it from consideration due to the cost of the tank, and I will not rent a tank. That leaves me with the auto gas to deal with. It is not an optimal solution but seems to be where I am at this point. I am going to check and see if the 7000 will operate on 100LL Av Gas. That will store better than todays junk auto gas. I do need to move oaths as we are well into the fire season. Again, much obliged for the many helpful posts.

 

[larry_g]

All this conversation and no mention of the well pump. I found that my old well pump had more inrush current than my generator could handle. Pay attention to that corner of your needs as it is on your list. My current house has a variable speed well pump and ramps up speed without the huge inrush and runs fine on a generator.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Crabman]

There are other people who make reliable generators. The problem with all gas generators is there gas. Gas goes bad.

I guess we Bruce's stick together. Like Bruce993, I have gone with a duel fuel. I bought Duromax XP4400. I love it and no more bad gas, carb problems, etc. The propane is so clean and simple.

I started a thread on it in Hot Deals. A lot of people had interesting things to say.

Bruce (the other Bruce)