pulling fiber optic network cable for detached shop

[rjacobs]

underground fiber optic network cable for detached shop

Anybody here in the know on fiber optic networking cables?

Im planning to run Ubiquiti gear(wifi AP's, cameras, switches, etc...) and was trying to determine if I needed to run multiple runs of Cat 6 to the shop or just 1 plus a second switch. Im planning to run 3 cameras plus a wifi access point. I determined I just needed 1 run plus a second switch as the easiest way to do it. Then one guy on the Ubiquiti forum says "dont run Cat 6, run pre terminated fiber optic cable" and he explained why. Im on board with it vs. Cat 6.

Then on my research for fiber cables I see what I need for under $100 bucks, then I go "wait, im going to put this underground in conduit" and think "I need burial rated cable" and I see its like $500... which is crazy.

ETA: I see most OM3 cable is indoor/outdoor rated. Im sure that this just means the jacket is UV protected since all of the burial rated cables are also called like "armored jacket" or something like that. Seems overkill if I am burying in conduit.

So does anybody have experience with this cable type I am talking about and burying indoor rated(for lack of a better term) fiber optic cable in conduit underground provided the ends are sealed and all joints are glued? While I dont disagree that water CAN and WILL find a way into the conduit, with fiber cable it seems we arent worried about water in the cable causing corrosion or what not. Also I am in Dallas so not worried about ground freezing below like 1-2".

 

[cvairwerks]

Ping jblnut, as he does this type stuff for a living in harsh environments. His installs are all on farm and ranch setups. in the Minn area.

 

[pcmeiners]

How long is the run?

 

[rjacobs]

Ping jblnut, as he does this type stuff for a living in harsh environments. His installs are all on farm and ranch setups. in the Minn area.

Thanks

How long is the run?

Somewhere between 100 and 200 ft is my best guess at this moment(building the house and shop at the same time and not 100% sure on layout although im 99% sure how its going to layout, just not sure on distances).

BUT the person who recommended fiber over cat6 had multiple reasons outside of run length on why fiber is a better choice. As long as I dont need to use a burial rated cable, fiber will cost me like $75 for under 50 meters(which I am assuming I will be). If i need to go to like 100 meters it would be like 50 bucks more. BUT if I need to use a burial rated cable that cost jumps to like $500 for 100 meters of cable which is more than I am willing to spend.

 

[lbpd716]

How much traffic do you really think you will have on the line? What type of base service do you have and what is the initial speed.

I understand the desire for fiber, as well as using it as future proofing your location (I pulled fiber to every room in my house that sits dark - but I got the cable for free and was looking for excuses to use it.)

Example, are you storing the camera feeds in the shop as well, and accessing them remotely? If so you don't need to worry about pushing unencoded video back up that run. Are you talking to a server back at the house where you need that type of throughput?

Local loop you can go as fast as you want, but you are only as fast as your base service/switches can handle. I've found most people are able to make a few hand offs in their desires for gigabit local, when they only have megabit services.

 

[rjacobs]

How much traffic do you really think you will have on the line? What type of base service do you have and what is the initial speed.

I understand the desire for fiber, as well as using it as future proofing your location (I pulled fiber to every room in my house that sits dark - but I got the cable for free and was looking for excuses to use it.)

Example, are you storing the camera feeds in the shop as well, and accessing them remotely? If so you don't need to worry about pushing unencoded video back up that run. Are you talking to a server back at the house where you need that type of throughput?

Local loop you can go as fast as you want, but you are only as fast as your base service/switches can handle. I've found most people are able to make a few hand offs in their desires for gigabit local, when they only have megabit services.

The NVR for the cameras(3 or 4 in the shop) will be located at the house so all that traffic will be going over this cable. Even with that I am sure Cat6 can handle that in and of itself.

It was explained that cat6 underground has lots of issues(grounding difference between 2 buildings, lightning strike issues, interference due to location of power cable, and a few others) and fiber eliminates all of those. I can bury fiber in the same conduit as 220v electrical(although I wouldnt, I would run a separate conduit) but I wouldnt need a 12" separation which is the recommended minimum for Cat6.

I'm not worried about the $100 cost of the cable vs. cost of underground rated, shielded, solid core Cat6. I am worried about a $500 cable if I need to run underground burial rated fiber... If thats the case, I will run Cat6 and deal with its potential issues.

 

[lbpd716]

with the correct cables and good termination points, I doubt you will have any problems with Cat6.

I have several runs of outdoor, burial rated running from a small NOC up a 150 foot tower installed over a decade ago with no issues.

 

[rjacobs]

The cost for Cat6, shielded, outdoor, underground rated seems to be 40-50c a foot. So for a 50m run(162 feet) thats 65-81 bucks for cable.

For a 50m of indoor/outdoor pre-terminated fiber OM3 is like 80 bucks.

So the cost difference is the negligible. With fiber you eliminate all the potential issues that Cat6 has.

But again, if I have to use a burial rated fiber cable the cost gets way out of hand and I will run Cat6.

I dropped a PM to JBLnut and am awaiting a reply. In the meantime can anybody say specifically if it is ok to use a standard indoor/outdoor rated fiber cable, in conduit, underground? Not interested in the arguments of if I should do fiber over cat 6 or cat 6 over fiber. I can overcome the Cat6 issues if I need to, but it seems Fiber is the "better" way to go at basically the same cost...if your equipment can handle it, and what I am planning to use can handle it.

 

[rjacobs]

I was just clued into a fairly low priced burial rated cable so will likely go this way.

https://www.fs.com/products/70402.html

Can get 50 meters of cable for like 150 bucks. Thats about what some of the other non-burial rated fiber cables I was seeing were going to cost.

 

[Bad Habit]

Re: underground fiber optic network cable for detached shop

Indoor/outdoor rated means it is for use both indoors and outdoors. Whether it's in a conduit, exposed or direct buried the cable is meant for it. As to whether it withstands how it is run (or direct buried) is more about specific conditions. Pure outdoor rated cable can not be run inside due to fire ratings. Part of the construction of an outdoor cable is a way to prevent water migration through the cable.

If you can get a fiber cable, and make sure the preterminated ends survive the install you'll probably be better off (especially around here).



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[SGKent]

Often cameras have online services, like Ring for example, where camera events are recorded. That requires Internet access. If you see fiber in your life to the Internet by all means run fiber. But if you see only coax or DSL in your life for a long time then run Cat 6. Since it will be in its own conduit you can always upgrade it someday if fiber at the street is available. Cat 6 is up to a gig so that is far faster than anything you can get coax or DSL. Where I last worked was in IT in a state building in California servicing 3000 people. We ran fiber between the floors and Cat 5e on the floors. Three T3 lines came into the building. There were 24 working floors so that means about 100 people were using their computers at any given time - loading documents, camera conferences, on the Internet, streaming music while working, VOIP etc.. I would only run fiber on my property if fiber was available, or would be available at the street. Your distance is well under the allowable distance for Cat6. To me it looks like a narrow 2 lane county road is widened to 10 lanes in front of one property just because someone says you can go faster. If you get a lightning strike too close to you there is an equal chance your electronics will be fried anyway if there is a significant potential between buildings. Just my 2 cents worth. In addition routers, switches etc seem to have a finite life span anyway.

 

[jblnut]

Ping jblnut, as he does this type stuff for a living in harsh environments. His installs are all on farm and ranch setups. in the Minn area.

Thanks for the kind words

When I run fiber it is ALWAYS in a conduit weather it is underground or overhead or whatever. I have a few runs in conduit over 1000' under ground with your standard OM3 I/O cable and they are holding up just fine. It's gonna get wet, no way around that really unless you really go nuts with really fancy conduit.

Long and short of it is go ahead and put I/O cable in conduit underground. I almost always order premade cables from https://centerprises.com/ if I need something premade. Quick turnaround time and reasonable prices. They can put the pulling eye on and everything so all you have to do is hook on to it and go. I'd run no smaller than an 1" conduit though, 1-1/4" would be better. It's a Cat6 sized cable but is way more fragile than Cat6. Care needs to be taken when pulling fiber !! Your length shouldn't be an issue but be mindful that they are literally tiny glass pipes inside that cable.

I also run nothing less than a 6 strand fiber. I almost always do OM3 MM using LC connectors. That gives you a pair of spare pairs when needed to expand or troubleshoot.

I usually go through Greybar to order from https://centerprises.com/ as we gets tons of stuff from them already and all I need to do is send an email with the number of fibers and length and it's on it's way. I just ordered a 6 strand 620' piece and it's right at $700. Not cheap but going cheap isn't always best.

Link to CEnterprise data sheet on the fiber.

 

[MattT]

Re: underground fiber optic network cable for detached shop

Indoor/outdoor rated means it is for use both indoors and outdoors. Whether it's in a conduit, exposed or direct buried the cable is meant for it.

Outdoor doesn't mean a cable is rated for direct burial. Outdoor means it'll withstand UV & water not rocks. There shouldn't be any rocks inside the OPs conduit though so outdoor is fine for that.

 

[Augus7us]

My job is to work on fiber optic networks. I ran cat6 to my shop.

Fiber is good and fast but its more expensive, the switch you need will be more expensive, there are potential db drop issues and what not. Also if you kink the cable, its toast. It has to carry light like those cheap fiber optic plants where the tips light up. If you bend it past a certain point, it won't transmit light, ever.

Something else to consider is you will not tap out cat 6's bandwidth with security cameras and streaming tv and what not. Cat 6 is good for 10Gb/s. You're not going to use 1Gb/s...

My two cents!

 

[jade97]

You don't need burial rated fiber if you are putting it in conduit. Make sure you don't have any right radius in the fiber or you will attenuate the signal.

 

[Joe0121]

The cost for Fiber is in the SFP's and associated switches. Also SFP's Go bad. Just seems like a lot of cost Especially considering you are well within the Spec of Cat 6 Cable. If you are burying it in the ground you dont have to worry about temp shortening the effective range. I would just buy a big roll of it and make your own ends. CaT6A Ground burial is what you want IMO.

 

[rjacobs]

My job is to work on fiber optic networks. I ran cat6 to my shop.

Fiber is good and fast but its more expensive, the switch you need will be more expensive, there are potential db drop issues and what not. Also if you kink the cable, its toast. It has to carry light like those cheap fiber optic plants where the tips light up. If you bend it past a certain point, it won't transmit light, ever.

Something else to consider is you will not tap out cat 6's bandwidth with security cameras and streaming tv and what not. Cat 6 is good for 10Gb/s. You're not going to use 1Gb/s...

My two cents!

The cost for Fiber is in the SFP's and associated switches. Also SFP's Go bad. Just seems like a lot of cost Especially considering you are well within the Spec of Cat 6 Cable. If you are burying it in the ground you dont have to worry about temp shortening the effective range. I would just buy a big roll of it and make your own ends. CaT6A Ground burial is what you want IMO.

The fiber I'm looking at isn't any more expensive than burial rated, shielded, solid core cat6.

The 2 switches I am planning on using already have sfp and the fiber to sfp adapters are 17 bucks.

I guess I am still lost on the argument that people keep bringing up that fiber is more expensive... People are arguing against it like its 1000 dollars compared to 10 dollars.

I'm not doing this because I think cat6 bandwidth isn't enough.

Even if I ran cat6 I would still use the sfp ports with adapters to keep lan ports on my switch open.

 

[jblnut]

The people who are arguing that the costs associated with fiber being so expensive must not have used Ubiquiti equipment. In the HP/Cisco/Dell/whatever world yup, fiber equipment is tremendously expensive but Ubiquiti has changed all that. SFP+ adapters are $20ish and a 24 port switch with two SFP ports is $185. I'd recommend having a spare SFP module but I'd recommend having a spare if it were a Cisco or any other brand as well. Those little modules seem to go forever or last a few months with very little in-between. Bug hey, at $20ish you can have a spare for both ends and throw them away if you never use them and feel awesome about yourself.

Don't let the naysayers sway you from your decision. Run fiber in conduit and post pictures when it's all done !!

I'll bet the first people that upgraded to a color TV were asked why they needed that when most programs weren't even recorded in color yet

 

[Joe0121]

The fiber I'm looking at isn't any more expensive than burial rated, shielded, solid core cat6.

The 2 switches I am planning on using already have sfp and the fiber to sfp adapters are 17 bucks.

I guess I am still lost on the argument that people keep bringing up that fiber is more expensive... People are arguing against it like its 1000 dollars compared to 10 dollars.

I'm not doing this because I think cat6 bandwidth isn't enough.

Even if I ran cat6 I would still use the sfp ports with adapters to keep lan ports on my switch open.

What Ubiquiti switch are you using? I didn't know they made an switch the support 10GB Ethernet Fiber. When I looked into this a couple years ago small home switch that support fiber SFP's where in the hundreds of dollar range whereas Ethernet managed switch are in the tens of dollars range. You can probably get away with non ground burial cat6 if it is in conduit as well. But I really need to know the exact model gear your are planning on using.

Every time you convert from one transport medium to another you introduce a failure point and cost.
So from your cable modem/wifi router it's
Copper to Fiber to the shop

than you go back from Fiber to copper to the rest of the devices in the shop.

That's two mode changes doing that more cost effectively than just running copper is hard for me to believe. I think some of the cost is being hidden by the expensive switches. What i'm saying is Apples to apples fiber is more expensive than copper period, the cables are and so are the switches. I think what going on though is a lot of the cost is being hidden but the switches you are using. I'm not super familiar with Ubiquity gear so maybe the only option the give you support Fiber and Copper in that case go for it.

Now if ubiquity is going to sell you two Managed switch's that support both copper and FC and the cost isn't that much more than a simple Ethernet version and you can indeed buy a 100m LC to LC 10GB multi mode cable for a similar price to CAT6a hey go for it. Fiber is a good bit more sensitive to bending so you need to be careful doing your pulls, though that said most multimode cable today is pretty tough and I had several runs in my lab at work laying on the ground getting stepped on several times and it heald up. No matter what you do you should run it in a PFC conduit with enough room so if it fails you can pull the old back cable and replace it.

 

[Joe0121]

The people who are arguing that the costs associated with fiber being so expensive must not have used Ubiquiti equipment. In the HP/Cisco/Dell/whatever world yup, fiber equipment is tremendously expensive but Ubiquiti has changed all that. SFP+ adapters are $20ish and a 24 port switch with two SFP ports is $185. I'd recommend having a spare SFP module but I'd recommend having a spare if it were a Cisco or any other brand as well. Those little modules seem to go forever or last a few months with very little in-between. Bug hey, at $20ish you can have a spare for both ends and throw them away if you never use them and feel awesome about yourself.

Don't let the naysayers sway you from your decision. Run fiber in conduit and post pictures when it's all done !!

I'll bet the first people that upgraded to a color TV were asked why they needed that when most programs weren't even recorded in color yet

$185 x 2 or 40 bucks for this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008ABLU2I/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Plus the cable modem OP's cable provider rents to him.


So yeah copper is considerably less expensive than fiber.

 

[rjacobs]

In the house im planning their 16-150poe switch. Its a bit under 300 bucks. The shop is the 8-150 poe switch. I think 150 bucks.

 

[Joe0121]

In the house im planning their 16-150poe switch. Its a bit under 300 bucks. The shop is the 8-150 poe switch. I think 150 bucks.

Yeah thats where your cost is coming in. You can spec out the same network with Ethernet only switch with google wifi for A LOT less and Add some Ring camera with their 10/m monitoring could save some cash unless there are specific thing your really like about the ubiquity gear.

 

[jblnut]

From the tone of the first post he's going for a complete solution with Ubiquiti equipment (if you're gonna knock it at least spell it correctly ) SO he'll have the ultra fancy expensive unneeded switches anyway. Plus I'm sure you've dealt with the headaches of having multiple managed switches with no simple and unified interface to make a change to all of them at once. Ubiquiti for the most part solves this. I've deployed hundreds of switches and AP's on Dairy farms with literally zero failures in the last 4 years so I've come from a skeptic "why is it so cheap and when it does fail at least it's inexpensive" attitude to being a pretty big fan of their hardware.

I, as well as many in here, have thousands invested into different things over the years that I do not need but want to explore and play with and I can't think of a better place to "waste" money than running fiber to his shop. It's not that much more expensive than copper (having the SFP switches anyway) and it'll be a great learning experience for the OP to buy it all and deploy it. Sure there may be mistakes or incorrect purchases along the way but that's how we learn.

 

[Joe0121]

I got tired of fighting autocorrect. I just wasn't sure why OP was balking at the price of 100m fiber Optic cable in the grand scheme of things.

 

[rjacobs]

I got tired of fighting autocorrect. I just wasn't sure why OP was balking at the price of 100m fiber Optic cable in the grand scheme of things.

In my original search I was seeing prices for underground rated fiber at like 500 bucks for 100m Been directed to where I can get it for 150 bucks. At 150 im going fiber. At 500 I would make cat6 work.

 

[rjacobs]

Yeah thats where your cost is coming in. You can spec out the same network with Ethernet only switch with google wifi for A LOT less and Add some Ring camera with their 10/m monitoring could save some cash unless there are specific thing your really like about the ubiquity gear.

I want it all hosted locally. Google through people's ring cameras are giving out access to people's camera feeds to local police...without a warrant and without permission of the home owner... So I'll spend more money to get a great solution that's hosted locally.

 

[Joe0121]

In my original search I was seeing prices for underground rated fiber at like 500 bucks for 100m Been directed to where I can get it for 150 bucks. At 150 im going fiber. At 500 I would make cat6 work.

150 isn't bad at all. Just Make sure you check out the minimum bend radius As long as you don't do a 90 in your conduit your probably ok.

 

[rjacobs]

150 isn't bad at all. Just Make sure you check out the minimum bend radius As long as you don't do a 90 in your conduit your probably ok.

If I spec 1.5 grey conduit they only really sell the large bends so shouldn't be an issue but it's on my list to give the builder.

 

[Augus7us]

jblnut what if he has trouble with Ubiquity? What other options does he have in the same price range?

Joe and I did not say anything that is not true and you seem to have taken that as an attack. Why are you so adamant that he use fiber? What do you feel is so bad about running cat6?

 

[jblnut]

jblnut what if he has trouble with Ubiquity? What other options does he have in the same price range?

Joe and I did not say anything that is not true and you seem to have taken that as an attack. Why are you so adamant that he use fiber? What do you feel is so bad about running cat6?

I couldn't care less what he runs but if he's got a switch at both ends with a SFP slot and wants to mess around with fiber why not ?? I'm not arguing that Cat6 won't work 100% fine for his application I just think if he wants to run fiber because he's made his mind up about the equipment it won't be that much more expensive so again, why not ?

I have nothing at all against 300' runs of copper or 20' runs of fiber. Both have their places. The OP asked if he needed to run a fancy expensive fiber assembly if he was going in a conduit and it always seems everyone focuses on something other than the original reason for the post. There is no reason copper or fiber won't work just fine. He wants to mess around with equipment not everyone thinks is necessary and I say go for it. Other than it being more expensive, why not ? It's his money.

Ubiquiti stuff falls in a weird price range where it's more expensive than most consumer networking gear but no where near as expensive as conventional commercial networking gear. Think D-Link vs. Cisco I guess. There is a ton of stuff you can't do with Ubiquiti gear unless you want to get into the command line world and honestly very very few conventional home consumers will need those features anyway.

The value of the Unifi Controller over individually managed pieces of hardware speaks for itself. Free, no subscription cloud based management is not the norm yet at the commercial level but for the "prosoumer" the Unifi platform is feature packed and offers opportunities to learn if you want to dive deeper.

What kind of trouble will he have with Ubiquiti gear that he won't have with stuff from other manufacturers ?? The hardware is just as good as anything in its price range. Before I used Ubiquiti I deployed hundreds of TP-Link, D-Link, Netgear and Cisco switches with very few issues with any of them. The Unifi Controller won me over with its ability to remotely manage the sites. No more installing a small low power PC in the data rack to gain VPN access to log into each device when the customer wants to make changes. I can do it all from my phone now if needed. That saves the customer money and saves me time in the long run.

Long story short ...
Fiber = Good
Copper = Just as good for his application
jblnut = Ubiquiti fan (if you haven't picked up on that already lol)
Did not mean to come across as attacking in this post or any others previous to it .....

 

[HenryAZ]

What other options does he have in the same price range?

Engenius APs are great quality. I have two in the house, and an outdoor rated one out by the RV pad. All are directly connected via ethernet to the central switch. Makes for great Wi-fi coverage, and I hate the idea of extending any Wi-fi network using the wireless signal.

 

[BB Sig]

Re: underground fiber optic network cable for detached shop

I would run the fiber and pull two Cat6 shielded lines. Easier to pull them when you run the fiber.

I don't need fiber either (100 and 200 ft runs) but I already have 5 switches that are capable and I have the SFPs.

I plan to use Raspberry Pis for cameras and I'm going to test them as APs in my shop and polebarn. Will they be fast, No but they won't be passing anything but internet, VoIP, and MS Teams video chats. Just because I want to fiddle...

By the way, this is what I do for a living!

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[niget2002]

I ran the same train of thought when I was looking at pulling internet out to my shop. I even have the exact same Ubiquity hardware.

For me, it boiled down to cost. The guy that came out to install my internet said their company only charges $75/pull to run an ethernet cable. I asked if the distance changed the cost and he said no. SO for $75, I had a shielded cat-6 cable pulled and terminated for me.

If it wasn't for that, I was leaning fiber also. Mostly just to do it as I haven't played with fiber much.

I am another Ubiquiti/Unifi fanboy. They have a niche market that they perform very well in. I do wish they would open up just a few more functions to the web interface.

 

[pcmeiners]

Cost should less of a consideration. Having a lightning hit on a CAT 5/6 wire or if buried, anywhere near a hit will fry/burn devices. Grounding helps some of the time, but only for a nearby hit. Grounding for a close or direct hit becomes useless, shielding using shielded cable or metal conduit (Faraday effect) does not work with a direct/near hit either.

Run Fiber

 

[MFortie]

Sounds like jblnut has you mostly covered regarding the fiber. But I would also encourage you to run 1-1/4" conduit instead of 1". And run innerduct inside the conduit. The I/O cable will be fine.

And just FYI, I'm a RCDD (Registered Communications Distribution Designer) and have been designing ITS (information transport systems) for close to 20 years (I have my own company as well). I do a lot of educational and municipal work and apply the suggestions above to my projects.

 

[BB Sig]

Sounds like jblnut has you mostly covered regarding the fiber. But I would also encourage you to run 1-1/4" conduit instead of 1". And run innerduct inside the conduit.

I am asking because I don't know...

What's the purpose of the innerduct if he's only running 1.25 conduit? What size innerduct would you recommend for LC connectors in a 1.25 conduit?

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[Bad Habit]

Re: underground fiber optic network cable for detached shop

In my professional opinion ( I too am a RCDD, is that Real Cool Data Dude, or Race Car Drunk Driver...) and have been doing this for 35+ years, there's no need for innerduct. This for connecting a garage shop, not some computer engineering lab that will have multiple changes and adds.

Do what's needed to get the cable there and protected, don't look back.


Always amazed at the amount of cranial *********** here.

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[jblnut]

But I would also encourage you to run 1-1/4" conduit instead of 1". And run innerduct inside the conduit.

Lol. May as well run a proper ribbed innerduct in there as well if he's already wasting all his money on fiber

I'm just some silly farm kid that decided to go to work and install all kinds of different tech on other peoples farms so I do not have any extra letters in the electricianals fields extra qualifying my opinions like some do in here (I may PM you MFortie and others in the future if that's ok!!) but I've learned from others mistakes, and my own costly ones a few times, and can assure you all the suggestions in the thread in regards to whatever it is you decide to do are good ones.

OP: I know we're all dying to know .... Whatchagonnado now that you have all this advice you (sort of) asked for ?!?!?!?!?

 

[rjacobs]

OP: I know we're all dying to know .... Whatchagonnado now that you have all this advice you (sort of) asked for ?!?!?!?!?

Fiber.... 4 strand is 50 bucks more than 2 strand so cheap enough to have backup strands.

Probably the burial rated from fs.com I linked to above...

Probably in 1.25" grey conduit.

 

[Slednut]

The biggest problem with pulling pre-terminated multi-mode fiber is a lot of the time the ends are damaged. At least once a year I go out and splice ends onto pre-terminated fiber that has had the ends pull off or damaged so badly they won't work.

Most of the time the conduit and sweeps are too small.

Media converters are inexpensive, most people won't need more than a 10/100 connection to their shop. Just be very careful when pulling the fiber, if you know someone who can splice ends on it, do it that way.