Pulling wire questions...

[Paul-ish]

I'm just about ready to start drilling holes and wiring up my new garage.
I've never done any new structure wiring before.
I'm going to be sheeting with osb so I can hang stuff randomly on the walls.
What is the safest way to run all the wires? Should I drill near the tops of the studs and just bring single wires down to each outlet? How far in should the holes be? Should the wires run behind or in front of the insulation? How big of holes?

I'm going to be running lots of outlets. Probably close to 20 each on their own breaker So I never blow any. So lots of wire to run.




I said pulling wire... hun,hun...hun,hun

 

[PRH44]

You are required to be 1.25" from the edge of the stud. If you have 2X4 framing a 1" hole drilled in the center will meet this requirement. Otherwise protective plates will be required.
Since you will be applying large quantities of fasteners in your walls I would prefer to go vertical and only drill the top plate running horizontal in the attic. Of course this will consume a lot more cable, but you will be less likely to penetrate a cable later.

You can run the cable at a given elevation and just make sure you don't attach to that NO FASTENERS zone but that would be a pain in the rear

 

[Paul-ish]

Thanks... Yes 2x4 walls.

 

[FordsnFishin]

20 dedicated outlet circuits?!!?

Sounds like way overkill. You plan on running 20 different things at once? Even if you are running a heavy duty saw its going to draw only 10-15 amps.

If you wanted to maybe save a bit of money and trouble maybe double them up, or even 3-4 to a circuit? two outlets per circuit, space them how you want them, and you could just take a sharpie and label them telling you which goes to which so you dont put to much on one.

A 1 or 1 1/4" spade bit will do you some work. Drill it in the middle and romex staple them to keep out of way of any harm. Personally id drill low. Or if you have a accessible ceiling that's always a option encase you want to change things down the road easier.

 

[CoopVA]

IMHO, 20 dedicated outlets is overkill. You can safely put up to 8 outlets on a 20a circuit. What are the dimensions of the building? I suggest you put a quad (2 duplex receptacles) spaced every 10 foot along the walls. At a minimum, put two quads on a circuit, max four quads. Run the wiring in the middle of the studs at 12 inches above or below the height of the boxes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dogdog]

if you are going to bore a lot of holes in studs nothing beats these self feed bits from rigid. little priced more than spade bits but literally no effort to bore a hole in those woods. only one down fall can't bore bigger once you drill through with a smaller size that you didn't want.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ridgid-Self...Shipping-/201027805778?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

 

[Speedy Petey]

I agree that 20 each on their own breaker is absurd.
How many people will be working in this shop?

Running dedicated lines to thing that will run by themselves (compressor, dust collector, etc) makes sense, but to dedicate everything else is silly.

 

[JoeFin]

if you are going to bore a lot of holes in studs nothing beats these self feed bits from rigid.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ridgid-Self...Shipping-/201027805778?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

Residential Electricians use the 18" Ship Augers because they can drill through a stud and then mark the next stud 14 1/2" over for their next hole, keeping every thing in a nice straight line to save wire.

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/s...int-1-25-mm-bit-size-x-15-381-mm-twist-length


They also rest the drill on their knee to keep the height consistent too.

But I agree with PRH44 in going the top of the stud bay route

As for the layout - 6 or 8 single gang receptacles per circuit evenly distributed well serve him better then 2 gang receptacles with a bunch of plug cords hanging out of them.

Also throw in a 220 receptacle or 2 even if you don't think you'll need it. Most of the stuff that pops 20 amp breakers is dual voltage and can be wired for 220

 

[hidollartoys]

You can safely put up to 8 outlets on a 20a circuit.

Where do you guys get this stuff. In this application there is NO limit ( in the US).

 

[JoeFin]

Where do you guys get this stuff. In this application there is NO limit ( in the US).

For residential - yes

The guys are transposing Commercial load calcs in this case of 180 watts per receptacle - which in a heavy duty garage environment would be good practice but not required

 

[Paul-ish]

It's a 30x30 garage.
Yeah maybe 20 dedicated is a bit over kill.
There's going to be 2 - 220 outlets. One for a welder and one for a compressor.
Then a few 110's dedicated for power equipment that wont ever move like Drill press, Bench grinder, ban saw...also later probably a mill and lathe.

I have 100 amp service for the garage and a 48 circuit box in it. I figure it's better to over do it now then wish I had done it later.

Usually it will just be me working in there but I could easily see 3 people working all at once.

 

[hidollartoys]

For residential - yes

The guys are transposing Commercial load calcs in this case of 180 watts per receptacle - which in a heavy duty garage environment would be good practice but not required

I understand how they are getting it. DO NOT understand why this requirement is being touted for a RESIDENTAL garage.

 

[LEVE]

An interesting thread.

When I built my last garage (32"X32") I put outlets every 6' on all the walls. I dislike having to hunt for an outlet that's covered by accumulated junk. I also trip easier than the protective breakers. This eliminated having to have extension cords strung all over hell and gone.

When I recently moved, I found my new 2 car garage (barely a 2 car) had outlets ever 6' apart. These outlets are all installed high on the wall (about 40") and are super easy to reach. I like the setup.

But then, that's just me. But in both cases the State Electrical Inspector seemed to like the over kill. On my build he only commented on how many overhead lights I'd installed (two circuits and as many as in my house!). After telling him there's likely be more installed after he left he chuckled and said: "you can't have too much light", he signed the permit and we were both happy.

 

[JoeFin]

There's going to be 2 - 220 outlets. One for a welder and one for a compressor.

Then a few 110's dedicated for power equipment that wont ever move like Drill press, Bench grinder, ban saw.

Sounds about right - 3 dedicated circuits for those and then a couple dedicated 220v machines. I would still add at least 1 more 220v circuit just to make sure my bases were covered

...also later probably a mill and lathe..

Then in that case my solution is to wire a 50 amp receptacle for a RPC. Run the 3 phase power in exposed conduit to each machine location

a lot of folks will tell you don't sweat it and you can run a VFD off single phase but it certainly has it's draw backs

First the Chinese have done for VFD ratings what they have done for Hp ratings on motors. Basically you can forget about powering any thing over 2 Hp from a VFD feed off of single phase.

Before a flame war erupts - technically yes you can but either your going to spend $1000 for the VFD or your going to program out all the protections and fault prevention along with a very slow ramp time to get it to run.

Then what do you do with a multi-motor automatic machine. - buy and install a PLC to sync all the VFDs together ??

 

[volleyball]

I can see having plenty of outlets. They are cheap if you are doing them yourself and safer. But I thought the NEC limited the number per circuit. And why not have more circuits? I know a guy who has 1 receptacle for each circuit.

 

[Speedy Petey]

But I thought the NEC limited the number per circuit.

Nope. Not for a residential application.

 

[raddksn]

Also you don't want to fill that panel and not have spaces left for future!

 

[Paul-ish]

Also you don't want to fill that panel and not have spaces left for future!

True!

Ok so something like this

3 - 220 circuits
5 - single outlet circuits
4 - multi outlet circuits. (Maybe 4 on each?)
1 - circuit for 2 garage door openers. (Or should they be independent?)
2 - for lighting
1 - for exterior lights and outlet
1 - to the furnace

That's only 20.... I'm sure I'm missing something right now though.

 

[raddksn]

Garage door openers could go 1 on each lighting circuit.

 

[Mustang51js]

I have 100 amp service for the garage and a 48 circuit box in it. I figure it's better to over do it now then wish I had done it later.

My understanding is that the max breakers for a 100 amp panel is 24, but I'm sure some commercial electrician will tell you otherwise.

 

[sberry]

About 3 general circuits and 1 that could be tailored for motors if needed like a chop saw, 2 for light, maybe an outdoor and equipment like the furnace, anymore than that on 120 is a waste of effort.

 

[Speedy Petey]

My understanding is that the max breakers for a 100 amp panel is 24, but I'm sure some commercial electrician will tell you otherwise.

No, any electrician who knows anything will tell you otherwise. This is simply not true.
Where did you hear this myth?

 

[ishiboo]

OMG. I thought this would be a huge shop and 20 breakers might be reasonable. A 20x20?!

4 walls, 3 without garage doors on them let's assume. If you want to go ********, do three MWBC circuits, one for each GD-less wall, with each receptacle split. One single for the front wall outlets if any, outside outlets, etc. One for the GD. That's more than enough.

 

[CoopVA]

Where do you guys get this stuff. In this application there is NO limit ( in the US).

It is good practice and makes for a safe installation, even under worst case scenarios. And actually there is a limit that a circuit can handle, whether it's in a house or in an office building. General rule of thumb is 1.5 amps per device up to 80% of your circuit size. This is why it is standard practice to limit it to 8. By doing that, you leave room for future expansion.

Just because you "can" do something, doesn't always mean it's the best thing to do...

 

[Mustang51js]

No, any electrician who knows anything will tell you otherwise. This is simply not true.
Where did you hear this myth?

I go by what the inspectors here fail me by. If you have a 100 amp panel which comes with 20 spaces they only let you go over 20%. So anything over 24 spaces they make you have a sub panel. What is the reason you can't find a 100 amp main breaker panel with more than 20 spaces, though recently they started making 24 space 100 amp main breaker panels. Whether it's code or not if I install a 30 space panel and use a 100 amp main I would more than likely fail. They like 100 amp 20 space, 150 amp 30 space and 200 amp 40 space here in nj. This is residential also. Not sure about commercial installations since I don't do them.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I go by what the inspectors here fail me by. If you have a 100 amp panel which comes with 20 spaces they only let you go over 20%. So anything over 24 spaces they make you have a sub panel. What is the reason you can't find a 100 amp main breaker panel with more than 20 spaces, though recently they started making 24 space 100 amp main breaker panels. Whether it's code or not if I install a 30 space panel and use a 100 amp main I would more than likely fail. They like 100 amp 20 space, 150 amp 30 space and 200 amp 40 space here in nj. This is residential also. Not sure about commercial installations since I don't do them.

HAHAHA...wow!

Well, I go by the CODE, not what the inspector tells me.
Either way, 32 space 100A main breaker panels are widely available. I'm not sure where you are shopping. To be failed for installing one is rather absurd, regardless of where you are. This is not a recent development.
Can I assume you are a handyman and not a real electrician?

 

[Speedy Petey]

It is good practice and makes for a safe installation, even under worst case scenarios. And actually there is a limit that a circuit can handle, whether it's in a house or in an office building. General rule of thumb is 1.5 amps per device up to 80% of your circuit size. This is why it is standard practice to limit it to 8. By doing that, you leave room for future expansion.

Just because you "can" do something, doesn't always mean it's the best thing to do...

And just because you personally do something does NOT make it "good practice" or ANY safer that any other code complaint installation.

The is absolutely NO limit of 8 receptacles on a circuit. Even in a non-residential application code would allow 13. Any other limit is someone's personal preference. I have heard folks say rule-of-thumb 8, 10, 12, depending on their own preference.
And your "general rule of thumb is 1.5 amps per device up to 80% of your circuit size" is also your own made up rule. NO WHERE is this written, and I've never heard of anyone I know using this either.
Both the 1.5A and blanket 80% are from the urban legend code book.

 

[CoopVA]

HAHAHA...wow!

Well, I go by the CODE, not what the inspector tells me.
Either way, 32 space 100A main breaker panels are widely available. I'm not sure where you are shopping. To be failed for installing one is rather absurd, regardless of where you are. This is not a recent development.
Can I assume you are a handyman and not a real electrician?

Code is what one should always follow, but we are all at the mercy of how the Local Authority Having Jurisdiction interprets the Code. Any one of us who has been in the Trade and have dealt with Inspections has at least one tale of an Inspector failing an installation for something because he interpreted the Code in some way contrary to your interpretation. Look at how many "disagreements we have on this forum... It works the same out there in the real world...

 

[CoopVA]

And just because you personally do something does NOT make it "good practice" or ANY safer that any other code complaint installation.

The is absolutely NO limit of 8 receptacles on a circuit. Even in a non-residential application code would allow 13. Any other limit is someone's personal preference. I have heard folks say rule-of-thumb 8, 10, 12, depending on their own preference.
And your "general rule of thumb is 1.5 amps per device up to 80% of your circuit size" is also your own made up rule. NO WHERE is this written, and I've never heard of anyone I know using this either.
Both the 1.5A and blanket 80% are from the urban legend code book.

No need to get all hot about it man... If you don't like what anyone has to say, don't pay any attention to it. My statement holds true HERE were I work and how I was trained. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't open the door for you to get all indignant.

I was trained to install work beyond Code requirements, and that is what the Inspectors here want. You can always install above Code requirements, never below. And that IS good practice.

Better safe than sorry...

 

[Speedy Petey]

Code is what one should always follow, but we are all at the mercy of how the Local Authority Having Jurisdiction interprets the Code. Any one of us who has been in the Trade and have dealt with Inspections has at least one tale of an Inspector failing an installation for something because he interpreted the Code in some way contrary to your interpretation. Look at how many "disagreements we have on this forum... It works the same out there in the real world...

I'm not sure how interpretation fits in here. It's a pretty clear topic.

 

[Speedy Petey]

No need to get all hot about it man... If you don't like what anyone has to say, don't pay any attention to it. My statement holds true HERE were I work and how I was trained. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't open the door for you to get all indignant.

I was trained to install work beyond Code requirements, and that is what the Inspectors here want. You can always install above Code requirements, never below. And that IS good practice.

Better safe than sorry...

Dude, I'm neither hot nor indignant.
Just tellin' it like it is.

 

[CoopVA]

I'm not sure how interpretation fits in here. It's a pretty clear topic.

LOL...

This is from a Local Authority Having Jurisdiction:

"The National Electrical Code (NEC), in particular, is a United States standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment and is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). It is the “authority having jurisdiction” who inspects for compliance with these minimum standards. In the U.S., anyone issuing building permits may face a civil liability for negligently creating a situation that results in loss of life or property. Those who fail to adhere to well known best practices for safety have been held negligent. This has led to the NEC becoming the de facto standard set of electrical requirements in most jurisdictions."

The NEC establishes MINIMUM Standards...

Interpretation of the Code and what the Local Authority Having Jurisdiction requires based upon THEIR interpretation IS everything.

 

[CoopVA]

Dude, I'm neither hot nor indignant.
Just tellin' it like it is.

Cool. Me too.

 

[Speedy Petey]

LOL...

This is from a Local Authority Having Jurisdiction:

"The National Electrical Code (NEC), in particular, is a United States standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment and is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). It is the “authority having jurisdiction” who inspects for compliance with these minimum standards. In the U.S., anyone issuing building permits may face a civil liability for negligently creating a situation that results in loss of life or property. Those who fail to adhere to well known best practices for safety have been held negligent. This has led to the NEC becoming the de facto standard set of electrical requirements in most jurisdictions."

The NEC establishes MINIMUM Standards...

Interpretation of the Code and what the Local Authority Having Jurisdiction requires based upon THEIR interpretation IS everything.

I know this, but tell me just how an inspector would interpret the code to fail a job simply because someone installed a 32 space main breaker 100A panel, as opposed to a 20 space.

 

[CoopVA]

I know this, but tell me just how an inspector would interpret the code to fail a job simply because someone installed a 32 space main breaker 100A panel, as opposed to a 20 space.

Well, that didn't come from me, BUT, If the Local Jurisdiction requires there to be only 20 spaces in a 100a panel, they CAN do that.

Never had THAT problem here...

It wouldn't surprise me though. I've had to deal with some goofy stuff in some areas... You ever try to pass an inspection in Washington DC? They got some REAL goofy stuff on some things and fail installations because the installer didn't know the Local Code. Montgomery County Maryland is another one... It's a ***** when you gotta know over a dozen different Local Codes and then have to also deal with the Requirements from a half dozen Power Companies... that is why we always go above and beyond the NEC.

And that is why I will never advise anyone to just go minimum code. I just can't do it man...

 

[Speedy Petey]

Well, that didn't come from me, BUT, If the Local Jurisdiction requires there to be only 20 spaces in a 100a panel, they CAN do that.

Obviously. I was referring to Mustang's post above. He definitely makes it seem like they ask for things off the cuff and to their whims. I'd be impressed to see all that in writing. THAT is the main problem, guys caving to inspectors simply because of what "they like to see", with no written code citations to back it up.

It wouldn't surprise me though. I've had to deal with some goofy stuff in some areas... You ever try to pass an inspection in Washington DC? They got some REAL goofy stuff on some things and fail installations because the installer didn't know the Local Code.

No doubt. I hear Kalifornia is also famous for stupid local amendments.
Hey, if something is in writing, regardless of how I feel about it, that's how it get's done, but you'd better have it in writing somewhere to back it up.

 

[CoopVA]

Obviously. I was referring to Mustang's post above. He definitely makes it seem like they ask for things off the cuff and to their whims. I'd be impressed to see all that in writing. THAT is the main problem, guys caving to inspectors simply because of what "they like to see", with no written code citations to back it up.

This is true, I have seen that happen.

It also may very well may be the case in his AO. I've seen stuff just as stupid from a County. You can fight it and win, but generally the Authority Rules no mater how dumb it might be.

No doubt. I hear Kalifornia is also famous for stupid local amendments.
Hey, if something is in writing, regardless of how I feel about it, that's how it get's done, but you'd better have it in writing somewhere to back it up.

If I knew the Inspector was out of his mind and not even following his own Code, you can bet I would fight it.

 

[brownie]

I go by what the inspectors here fail me by. If you have a 100 amp panel which comes with 20 spaces they only let you go over 20%. So anything over 24 spaces they make you have a sub panel. What is the reason you can't find a 100 amp main breaker panel with more than 20 spaces, though recently they started making 24 space 100 amp main breaker panels. Whether it's code or not if I install a 30 space panel and use a 100 amp main I would more than likely fail. They like 100 amp 20 space, 150 amp 30 space and 200 amp 40 space here in nj. This is residential also. Not sure about commercial installations since I don't do them.

not sure were your at in jersey but I can get a 30ckt 100a mbp any day of the week , Ive put in tons of them, have i been violating the code all this time

 

[Mustang51js]

HAHAHA...wow!

Well, I go by the CODE, not what the inspector tells me.
Either way, 32 space 100A main breaker panels are widely available. I'm not sure where you are shopping. To be failed for installing one is rather absurd, regardless of where you are. This is not a recent development.
Can I assume you are a handyman and not a real electrician?

I am a real electrician,and rather pass inspection than tell them some guy on the garage forum says it fine.i don't argue with the inspectors and not often that I would put a 100 amp panel and need more than 20 spaces,otherwise I would go bigger. Like I said before I do 99% residential so I don't do big services and try to keep my things standard so I have no issues.

 

[Mustang51js]

not sure were your at in jersey but I can get a 30ckt 100a mbp any day of the week , Ive put in tons of them, have i been violating the code all this time

I'm in northern nj, I'm not saying it's wrong but what I do,I rather not take the chance to fail if I don't need to. Same thing with service heads,I use them for service cable and would fail if I didn't, now go south jersey towards the shore and there's no service heads down there,so it's all up to the local inspectors