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Pulling wire

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slowtwitch73

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Not garage related per se. We have a kitchen island with a worthless microwave type deal and a bread warmer. Stupid. Would be an ideal place for an in wall (under counter) oven. Only catch is both current appliances are on dedicated 110 lines. If I got rid of the existing lines I would have room in the box for the 220 breaker, which would leave the wire to deal with. The wire coming into the island seems to be pretty free and loose at first glance. Box is in attached garage and enters house though a bottom corner.. just a mass wires with spray foam around it.

Assuming I can id the correct wires, which I think can be done fairly easily, how hard would it be to pull the correct wire for 220? Is this something that is done all the time? Never? It would be about 20 ft from end to end. Wondering if there's a snowballs chance in hell of it working.
 
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cmandp

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How exactly are you pulling the new wire (likely 6-3NM-b or similar)? Would you use one of the old 120V cables as the fish? If so, that probably won't work as the holes drilled through joists/studs/subfloor are likely too small.

Is the basement finished? Can you access the underside of the island?
 
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slowtwitch73

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cmandp said:
How exactly are you pulling the new wire (likely 6-3NM-b or similar)? Would you use one of the old 120V cables as the fish? If so, that probably won't work as the holes drilled through joists/studs/subfloor are likely too small.

Is the basement finished? Can you access the underside of the island?
Click to expand...
Yes old 120 as the fish... and the difference in diameter is something that gives me pause....
My guess would be that the two 120 lines are though the same holes so larger *could* work.. but that's expecting alot.

Finished basement, no access.
 
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TRWham

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If it's only 20', then just make whatever holes you need in the drywall ceiling below and repair them later. This is exactly how the pros do it, as there is usually no alternative in residential construction with stapled non-metallic cable. The next to last thing we do on most renovations is repair the holes used for modifying wiring or plumbing, then the last thing is paint.
 
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slowtwitch73

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Looks like these single wall ovens are 4100 watts max so that would be a 20amp breaker. Need to see what wire size we have currently.
 
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FMB4

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Never seen an oven installed in an Island. But, hey that's just me. Meanwhile, as a former commercial security system installer (worked for a company), we always expected the worst while praying for the best when it came to pulling (thin, but strong) sec wire and coax vid cable. went ~ 50/50 as I recall.
 
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cmandp

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Okay so not a 50A circuit like I was thinking for a range. So only 12AWG wire. But Syberia brings up the other big problem. You can try to see if the wire moves but most likely it will just be easier to cut a hole in the drywall as others have suggested and patch when done. You'll know with more certainty that the wire wasn't damaged somewhere you can't see during the pull too.
 
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nadogail

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When you find it necessary to cut holes in your walls and ceilings I suggest you keep in mind a few things that include the following:
1. Big holes are easier to work in than the tiny holes you may be tempted to "make do" try to work in.
2. I have found that bigger holes, if carefully cut out, can be easier to inconspicuously patch than those tiny ones.

I learned this doing my own electrical work for a kitchen remodel.
 
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TRWham

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nadogail said:
When you find it necessary to cut holes in your walls and ceilings I suggest you keep in mind a few things that include the following:
1. Big holes are easier to work in than the tiny holes you may be tempted to "make do" try to work in.
2. I have found that bigger holes, if carefully cut out, can be easier to inconspicuously patch than those tiny ones.

I learned this doing my own electrical work for a kitchen remodel.
Click to expand...
And keep the cut-outs for patching. You always know they will fit.
 
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dscheidt

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Also: you need at least one 120V 20A circuit supplying outlets on the island.
 
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slowtwitch73

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There are a few other 120 outlets on the island on their own circuits.

I plan to use the 120 12g wired outlet previously dedicated to the micro and change to 240 with a 20 amp breaker.
 
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cmandp

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slowtwitch you will need to pull new 12-3 NM-b (Hot, Hot, Neutral, gnd) cable for your 240v circuit. I wondered if you could combine the two 12-2 cables you have now but was hesistant to mention it since I didn't think it was allowed. And as Norcal confirms you cannot have two seperate cables combined to make up a circuit.
 
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rjn2649

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As N & T said, I wouldn't waste too much time fussing around. IF you can isolate and disconnect ALL the wire you could use a tone generator and trace your path. CUT nice sized holes, or a complete strip of drywall. Use the old drywall to patch. Yeah it will be more time up front, but you WILL save time in the long run and end up with a much neater job. There is nothing more time wasting IMO than cutting a hole you cant get your hand into, and every time I see a home improvement show when they use a hammer to open up an exploratory hole, I just eefing cringe....
 
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SlappyWhite

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I doubt you will be able to pull it directly as the other wires will (should) be stapled and the holes drilled may also not be large enough for the 8/3, or at least too small to pull it easily.

If you take a rewire approach you can likely fish it in with minor holes in drywall etc. but that sometimes depends on luck (direction of joists etc.). Metal fish tape in places, etc. Another technique I use is a string with a nut tied on the end and a strong magnet (like the ones used to pick up dropped nuts) from the hole in the basement to do walls (takes two people but it works very fast), etc.
 
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slowtwitch73

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cmandp said:
slowtwitch you will need to pull new 12-3 NM-b (Hot, Hot, Neutral, gnd) cable for your 240v circuit. I wondered if you could combine the two 12-2 cables you have now but was hesistant to mention it since I didn't think it was allowed. And as Norcal confirms you cannot have two seperate cables combined to make up a circuit.
Click to expand...

What I am working with is two runs of 12-2 both on their own single pole breakers, essentially in the same location. One was for the micro, the other for the warming drawer.

Seems I can take one of the 12-2 wires and run it into a 20 amp double pole breaker, labeling the white with red tape, and then 'steal' the white/neutral from the second 12-2 and use as such.
 
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nadogail

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If you don't have the whatever it takes t do the job right the first time; how will you be able to put together what you will need to do the job right when you find you have to finally fix it?
 
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SlappyWhite

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Because if you do it the way you are talking about it may never in your opinion be a problem for you since you know how you bodged it, it becomes very dangerous for the next person as they will not know. Also, when you sell the house if an inspector catches it, it will be obvious that the wiring was messed with by someone that did not know what they were doing and now the entire house is suspect.

If you do things to code, even somewhat older codes that were in place during the lifetime of the home, all the above is taken care of and no future flags are raised.
 
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slowtwitch73

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Raising red flags about the home is a valid point. When we sell they can do whatever due diligence they wish. It's neat as a pin. I would also disclose it. As simple as saying 'hey when we put that second oven in I took a neutral from an abandoned line.. it's labeled on both ends. If you want to run 12-3 go for it'.

If they can't come to terms with that, I don't want to deal with them.
 
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