Pumping Water Uphill

[CoyoteLL]

Got a question for some of you gurus.

I've got a situation where I need to pump water up to an open tank about 100' up and a distance of 2500' (~1/4 mile). I calculate a total head and head loss of ~140' + some margin, so I want to size it for 170' of head.

I can suction from an existing tank. But I am having a hard time sizing the right pump. Electricity is available at lower tank. I have even thought of a self-contained solar unit running a DC pump. Don't need high flow. Anywhere around 5 GPM.

Might be cheaper to just punch a new well at the uphill pond. Water table is around 100'.

Got any idears?

 

[east_tn_emc]

So you are wanting to push water thru 2500' of pipe and gain ~100' of static head (elevation change) as well?

What size piping? What material of piping? Any elbows, joints, valves, etc in the piping?

A quarter-mile of "pushing" is going to require a pretty good sized pump to overcome frictional losses in the piping.

 

[CoyoteLL]

3/4" piping. No elbows...straight shot.

From what I have read, 2500' of 3/4 PVC at 3 GPM has a head loss of around 76'. I could try to size it at 200' for good measure.

I see some good DC solar pumps that will raise water 230' out there.
http://www.dcpower-systems.com/product_detail.aspx?gid=658&pid=22146

 

[theoldwizard1]

So you are wanting to push water thru 2500' of pipe and gain ~100' of static head (elevation change) as well?

What size piping? What material of piping? Any elbows, joints, valves, etc in the piping?

A quarter-mile of "pushing" is going to require a pretty good sized pump to overcome frictional losses in the piping.

Friction losses, heck !

How many gallons of water, at 8 lbs per gallon, will be pushing back on that
pump at the bottom of the hill !

 

[nehog]

Friction losses, heck !

How many gallons of water, at 8 lbs per gallon, will be pushing back on that
pump at the bottom of the hill !

Good thing it doesn't work that way!

Water is .43 (approximate, from memory) PSI per square inch per foot. A 3/4 inch ID pipe is .442 sq inch. So each foot of head in that 3/4 ID pipe will be 0.20 lb, so 100 ft of head would be 19 lb, and 200 ft of head would be 38 lb.
BTW, 100 ft of 3/4 ID pipe would have a volume of 530 cubic inches. A cubic inch of water weighs about 0.0361 lb, which confirms the above number!

 

[kbs2244]

If you can live with some water loss, but with the luxury of no electric cost, check out a “ram pump.”
It uses the inertia of the falling water to pump some of that falling water uphill.
Not quite something for nothing, but close.

 

[larry_g]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-head-pressure-d_663.html

P=H x .434 x sg So 100' of head (rise) is 43.4 psi at the pump. So to even move water up the hill you need a pump capable of a pressure greater than the head pressure.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[nmanitou]

First of all, 2,500 feet is more like a half mile, not a 1/4. I also think you will have a lot more friction loss than you have assumed.

Pumps are specified to provide certain flow at a certain operating pressure. The operating pressure is in units of psi or often also "feet of head". The operating pressure is the sum of elevation lift (static head) plus friction losses. Friction losses depend on pipe diameter, length, and pipe type.

Here is a good reference source to input all the variables and determine total friction head. Remember to add static head (100' in your case) to your answer. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html

According to the figures you provided, you will have 87 ft of friction loss at 3 gpm plus the 100' static head for a total of 187 ft (or 81 psi). Be carefull though, at 5 gpm, friction sky rockets to 220'! This means you really need a bigger pipe to be safe and save Hp. You might want to double check your elevation too, being off 10-15feet can make a big difference on some pumps.

When you look at pumps they should state what flow they deliver at a certain total head. Use this info to pick the right one. The better way to select a pump is to review a chart called a "pump curve" which will graph flow vs head. Watch out for pumps that dramatically fall off in gpm with very little change in head.

Hope that helps.

 

[MBeaty]

Water is .43 (approximate, from memory) PSI per square inch per foot. A 3/4 inch ID pipe is .442 sq inch. So each foot of head in that 3/4 ID pipe will be 0.20 lb, so 100 ft of head would be 19 lb, and 200 ft of head would be 38 lb.

The hydrostatic head does not care what diameter pipe you are using, it is simply a function of fluid density and height of the fluid column. The diameter of the pipe does make a difference in regard to frictional losses, but not to the hydrostatic head.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ure-d_663.html

P=H x .434 x sg So 100' of head (rise) is 43.4 psi at the pump. So to even move water up the hill you need a pump capable of a pressure greater than the head pressure.

Back when I worked in the oilfield, one of our common "quick" calculations was the hydrostatic pressure in a well bore.

We would always use the following formula

Pressure (PSI) = .052 x Fluid Density (lb/gal) x height

In this case it is just one more formula to confirm what larry g already said, but as long as you know the density, it is easy to calculate for various densities of fluids.

As far as the pump, most centrifugal pumps could handle that head, but it may have to be a decently powerful motor. Another option if you have compressed air supply is an air powered diaphragm pump.

At the end of the day, HP is HP, whether from air or electric motors and it will take a decent amount of it to move the water up that head, especially with the friction losses.

 

[srmofo]

hydraulic ram pump. No electric and pumps by itself.

Heres how it works

IIRc they were invented decades ago so farmers could pump fresh water up to their livestock

 

[holdover]

I pump water at my farm with a 3/4HP submersible Goulds pump. The well is 300' deep, plus the rise to my house is another 75' for a total of 375 foot. Pipe is 1" plastic with a run of 600' from the well to the house. For the last 35 years there has never been a shortage of water. Pressure reg is set to 30-50lbs

 

[larry_g]

I pump water at my farm with a 3/4HP submersible Goulds pump. The well is 300' deep, plus the rise to my house is another 75' for a total of 375 foot. Pipe is 1" plastic with a run of 600' from the well to the house. For the last 35 years there has never been a shortage of water. Pressure reg is set to 30-50lbs

You have to be careful with this information. One factor is how high the water is in the well pipe. My well is ~230' but the water is only about 40' down the casing and the pump is at 80 or 100 feet. So in my case I figure lift + 40 to find the head not lift+well depth.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[sberry]

An inch pipe isn't much more expensive and would work a lot better, can get it in 300 ft rolls, haven't priced it lately but at near wholesale maybe 60-75$ a roll?

 

[CoyoteLL]

Thanks all. I have been looking at just about everything mentioned here.

The RAM pump intruigues me as it is free, but I don't have a constant flow at the lower "input" unless the existing well pump is running.

Being from West Texas, we have alot of black poly tubing/pipe used in the area for pumping water...I was looking at just using that and burying it with a single plow. A roll of 400' is about $85.

Again...just trying to trade study this to see what is cheaper, a new well, or boost pump from the existing well. Maybe even size it for 200' and use 1" pipe and it sounds like it should work. I have read many pump curves out there.

Being an engineer, it's been fun just looking at the possibilities.

 

[hdossett]

You could do what they do at Grand Canyon National Park!

Water is pumped up from Roaring Springs, on the north side of the river, to the North Rim facilities. The head is over 3,000 feet. Don't remember the size of the pumps, but, they are big, with at least one "relay" pump, maybe more.

The South Rim is 1,000 feet lower than the North Rim, so the water for the South Rim is gravity feed back down, across the river, and up to the South Rim.

And, if the piping springs a leak, the plumber sometimes would have to go in via helicopter for repairs!

So, you could build a reserve tank tower at the source higher than destination and let gravity do the hard work for you!

But then, maybe the 1" pipe would work also since you have to run a pipe any way!

Good luck and let us know what you do, and how it works!

H

 

[Kevin54]

You could do what they do at Grand Canyon National Park!

Water is pumped up from Roaring Springs, on the north side of the river, to the North Rim facilities. The head is over 3,000 feet. Don't remember the size of the pumps, but, they are big, with at least one "relay" pump, maybe more.

The South Rim is 1,000 feet lower than the North Rim, so the water for the South Rim is gravity feed back down, across the river, and up to the South Rim.

And, if the piping springs a leak, the plumber sometimes would have to go in via helicopter for repairs!

So, you could build a reserve tank tower at the source higher than destination and let gravity do the hard work for you!

But then, maybe the 1" pipe would work also since you have to run a pipe any way!

Good luck and let us know what you do, and how it works!

H

You could probably put a secondary holding tank with a pump at the halfway point. Let your primary pump do the work to fill the secondary tank, let the pump at the secondary tank work along to fill the destination tank. I'd day it could all be ran thru 1". I know by Brother-in-laws well is 600"+ straight down through limestone and they dropped a 1hp pump at 550'. He gets something like 15gal/minute out of it.

 

[CoyoteLL]

That is certainly another option...pump to a mid-run holding tank. I have a guy out there measuring the current wellhouse pressure to see how far up the hill the existing well can pump. Then, it would allo for a smaller (cheaper) pump and solar system to pump the rest of the way.

My biggest problem is the place is 4 hours from me and I can't just run out there and do some figurin'.

 

[holdover]

"You have to be careful with this information. One factor is how high the water is in the well pipe. My well is ~230' but the water is only about 40' down the casing and the pump is at 80 or 100 feet. So in my case I figure lift + 40 to find the head not lift+well depth."

The pump is at about 300' the well is bored to 350' it flows 10GPM. When filling livestock tubs or watering garden it draws down the water in the casing, which fills back up to within 75' of the surface.

 

[jhelrey]

Quit trying to water your hidden marijuana field out in the woods!

 

[CoyoteLL]

This is West Texas...there are no woods!!!

 

[green.bubbly]

Collect the rain water...oh wait.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm no expert so I might have entered the data into this online calculator incorrectly, so take this with a large chunk of salt. From Pressure Drop Online-Calculator

Calculation output

Flow medium: Water 20 °C / liquid
Volume flow:: 10 gal/min
Weight density: 998.206 kg/m³
Dynamic Viscosity: 1001.61 10-6 kg/ms

Element of pipe: circular
Dimensions of element: Diameter of pipe D: .75 in.
Length of pipe L: 2500 ft.

Velocity of flow: 7.26 ft./s
Reynolds number: 42024
Velocity of flow 2: -
Reynolds number 2: -
Flow: turbulent
Absolute roughness: .02 mm
Pipe friction number: 0.02
Resistance coefficient: 989.49
Resist.coeff.branching pipe: -
Press.drop branch.pipe: -
Pressure drop: 50536.73 lbw./sq.ft.
350.95 psi

 

[demographic]

hydraulic ram pump. No electric and pumps by itself.

Heres how it works

IIRc they were invented a couple of hundred years ago so farmers could pump fresh water up to their livestock

Corrected for you

 

[CoyoteLL]

Yeah...350 psi ain't right.

10 gal/min does have an enormous amount of friction loss. I would be looking at less than 3GOM in that size of tubing. If not, step up to 1.25".

 

[theoldwizard1]

Larger pipe, same flow, BIG difference !

Calculation output

FFlow medium: Water 20 °C / liquid
Volume flow: 10 gal/min
Weight density: 998.206 kg/m³
Dynamic Viscosity: 1001.61 10-6 kg/ms
Element of pipe: circular
Dimensions of element: Diameter of pipe D: 1.25 in.
Length of pipe L: 2500 ft.
Velocity of flow: 2.61 ft./s
Reynolds number: 25214
Velocity of flow 2: -
Reynolds number 2: -
Flow: turbulent
Absolute roughness: .001 mm
Pipe friction number: 0.02
Resistance coefficient: 589.16
Resist.coeff.branching pipe: -
Press.drop branch.pipe: -
Pressure drop: 3899.74 lbw./sq.ft.
27.08 psi

 

[JCQuick]

http://www.grpumps.com/engTools.asp

 

[CoyoteLL]

Looking like no matter what, this is gonna cost over $2500.

 

[p_mori7]

I know this is a very old thread. I was searching Google for information related to my need to pump water uphill at my off-grid hunting cabin. Google led me back to this thread on GJ (of course). Just in case anybody else ever hits on this thread while searching for a solution to a similar problem, This is the site I used to determine what size gas powered pump I would need.

Pump Calculator | Pentair AES

Pentair is dedicated to excellence in all aspects of our business. Whether you need system design, technical service or unrivaled equipment-you can count on us.

pentairaes.com

In my case, I wanted to be able to fill a 250 gallon tote in no more than 1 hour of running a portable gas pump. Due to the height of the tote above the water source (river), I need a pump that could overcome 52psi of pressure. I have a 2" 7hp gas pump, but Max Pressure rating is 35psi. Another tool I need to buy.

 

[Walkers]

To the OP, FYI, a quarter mile is only 1320‘.

 

[PoorUB]

To the OP, FYI, a quarter mile is only 1320‘.

The OP has not been around for four years so no sense in "talking" to him!

 

[Walkers]

The OP has not been around for four years so no sense in "talking" to him!

I hate it when people bring up threads from the graveyard. This thread is from 10 years ago.

 

[PoorUB]

I hate it when people bring up threads from the graveyard. This thread is from 10 years ago.

There was one the other day from seventeen years back and the OP was still here and responded to the rebirth of the thread.

 

[Walkers]

There was one the other day from seventeen years back and the OP was still here and responded to the rebirth of the thread.

Yeah, sometimes things just work out.