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PV Solar - on the cheap

where2

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Dec 12, 2010
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772
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South FL
Rather than derail Luvit's 800kWh/month conservation challenge thread, it was suggested I start my own on the subject of DIY photovoltaic solar.

First, a little intro: About a year and a half ago, the economy was in the pits and I found myself with lots of time on my hands. I've got a 4 year degree from a darn good university, but nobody ever taught us how to weather an economic disaster in my chosen field of Surveying and Mapping. I'd already gotten bored, studied and passed an exam for a license in another state. Unfortunately, neither Florida nor Maine has a great need for licensed surveyors at the moment. So, I happened to be perusing the class offerings at the local community college 18 months ago and noticed they were offering an introductory course in solar energy as a class in their Electrical Power Technology systems program. So, I signed up for it and coughed up my $270 course fee with the thought in mind that being an educated consumer is a good thing when it comes to purchasing new technologies. After my first night of class, I was telling my dad about the class and next thing I knew he signed up for it. So, there we were, father and son taking the same class. My dad spent 33 years working for a local aerospace firm working as an electronics technician, the electrical theories were no sweat to the oldest guy in the class.

For the final project in this class, each student had to come up with a concept, do research about it, compute the cost to implement the project and project what the benefit would be. The project I came up with was the modular PV solar array. By the time my project was done, I had a single line diagram suitable for handing to the local AHJ.

The system relies on whoever has the least expensive solar panels capable of driving a micro-inverter (60 cell panels @ ~30v). In my case, I bought a pallet of twenty Evergreen 220W modules for $0.78/W. The bankruptcy of Evergreen left dirt cheap panels on the market late last year when I bought these. Realizing when I'd done my calculations in April, for my class project, panels were running $1.98/W, I saw that the Evergreen panels were an incredible bargain, even if they really didn't have any warranty. As I later watched other big name panel manufacturers declare bankruptcy, I came to realize PV Solar really is going to be hit or miss if you have a panel failure down the road and need to file a warranty claim. So, self-insure, buy extra panels, especially if they are cheap!

A panel is only the beginning of the equation, next you need to drive an inverter to turn DC solar power into AC grid power. For that, my project will rely on micro-inverters, because I have shading issues, and because I have a 2-story house where running heavy gauge DC wiring from the roof to a central inverter would be a logistical nightmare. Then there is the fact that I have a small one car garage with a small work area, located 10' from my load panel. I'm short on physical space indoors! Bringing two 12 gauge 15A 220V circuits from the second floor roof to the load panel is just easier since my electric meter box has a built-in breaker panel with spare room in it on the exterior of the house. My inverters of choice are the Enphase M215's. They run as low as $150 each from some online merchants, watch out for shipping costs though!

One of the beauties of the Enphase system is the ability to monitor output of each panel individually. To do this, you need an Enphase Envoy Comminications Module to listen to the power line communications data that each inverter sends down the neutral wire. For that, I found my local Lowes coupon for $25 off a purchase of $250 or more. Then I found the Westinghouse communications module for $512, less $25, shipped to my local Lowes for free. :) I ordered the Westinghouse device, but the box, instructions and the device itself are all straight Enphase product.

The reason my panels are in my garage and not on the roof yet is the racking challenge. Sticking a giant sail to your roof, and getting a structural engineer to buy off on the design is a challenge when you live where hurricanes frequently make landfall. I'm looking for a rack design capable of withstanding 150MPH winds! My other criteria is that the mounts not put 87 holes in my Decra stone coated metal roof. Tile hooks would be fine, but finding engineering specifications on anyone other than Unirac's tile hooks is a challenge!

Got questions? Ask away. For anyone contemplating a similar system who doesn't live where you get 150mph winds, check into the largest Westinghouse system that Lowes sells. The single and 4 panel setups are rather steep pricing for DIY, but they do seem to come well equipped. The 20 panel kit for $12,500 (235W panels) is actually the best value, especially if you get an extra 5% discount for using your Lowes Charge.

My goal is to offset 600kWh of my electric per month using net metered solar.
 
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FluxCore

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May 28, 2012
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Born and raised in Germany, settled in Lousyana
My bud just bought a 3000 ft/2 all electric house with half the roof covered in solar panels....his electric bill runs 14 to 15 bucks a month, and this is Louisiana where the heat has been unbearable for last 2 months..plus he runs TWO average seer split units and two waterheaters.

He *****, yaknow? My 2400 ft/2 house is all electric and I'm payin 250/mth.

We are fixin to carpet my workplace(federal agency) with solar panels...acres of them...all parking will be covered with solar 'carports'...All roofs will be solar....acres of panels.....We expect to use only 60% and sell the rest to the grid....They are also replacing my large boilers and chillers with a cogen plant....that will be another 60/40 split.

The money for all this is flowing because our new status as no longer just a hospital. We have been selected to support FEMA, Home Land Security, and other agencies in times of social unrest, economic collapse, regional disaster, or whatever might happen.

This month they will start constructing our huge long term outage gas turbine full facility emergency generator plant...we will keep our local short term generators to support outages of up to 5 days.

Kinda scary to see folks high up making these kinda preps, yaknow?
 

Highbeam

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Feb 15, 2011
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Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
I'm a bit interested (nosey) in how you can afford to be doing this while you are unemployed? Probably none of my business but since I spend a lot of time with surveyors and am in a similar profession I am interested in whether you expect it to come back soon or are doing this to hunker down long term.

I'm happy for you to be taking those classes and pressing forward. I live in a net metering state and have no trees shading my one acre lot. 115MPH wind zone.
 
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where2

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Dec 12, 2010
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South FL
I'm actually NOT unemployed. I'm under-employed like hundreds of thousands of Americans. I didn't hang out until I got pink slipped in surveying. I resigned. I took my diploma, my surveying licenses, my 401k and went off to play in another field. I left the surveying company I worked for for 16 years in the capable hands of the three licensed surveyors who were partners in the firm. For the last 36 months, I've had two jobs at a minimum working 50-60 sometimes 80 hours a week. Resigning from surveying was something I needed to do to keep my sanity. At the moment I have just one job. On a good week, I make less than half what I used to make surveying. Surveying will eventually come back as a profession, I'm just not willing to play cut throat with the guy across town who has no degree.

How I pay for my solar is called investing. My money in the bank is eroding away due to inflation. Solar collects sunshine and pays $$$ every day the sun comes up. Cloudy days, the return is not so good. On an average day, a single 220W panel can spit out around 1kWh of power where I live. A panel for ~$200 + an inverter for ~$150 plus the misc. wiring and rack will pay back $0.10 per day (~$40 per year). The cheaper you can put all the pieces together, the shorter the payback period. I can't pick a stock or mutual fund that can provide that steady $0.10 per day return year after year on a $500-$600 investment. There is also currently an IRS tax incentive for renewable energy investment and weatherization. The tax incentive effectively lowers the initial investment required by ~30%. Thus, it makes more sense to invest in solar, than let my $$ sit in the bank where the same $600 earned $0.02 for the entire month!

For those who are interested in what solar PV setups on houses near them produce, put the phrase "enphase public systems" in google. Follow the August 2, 2011 link to the interactive map.
 
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where2

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772
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South FL
A long awaited update: About a month ago, I received my structural engineering design to permanently mount twenty Evergreen 220W PV panels on my second story roof in coastal South Florida. The structural engineer I chose for the project used to live two blocks away. He now lives in Colorado. Fortunately, I was able to track him down through Facebook. I now know every detail necessary to keep 20 panels on the roof at 170mph. If you're wondering why I chose to work with an engineer 2,000 miles away, rather than find a local structural engineer, the answer is two fold: in 2010 this particular structural engineer designed the wind mitigation measures my wife and I added to our house built in 1961 to structurally attach the wood frame second floor to the concrete block & stucco first floor (so he is very familiar with my house); and more importantly the only local structural engineer I was able to get a recommendation for blew me off by telling me adding PV to my house wasn't something I wanted to do myself. The uplift on this PV array at 170mph is astounding.

After pouring over my notes and textbook from the "intro to solar" class my father and I took at the local community college in 2011, and a 2008 copy of the NEC, I spent a few nights with Google, picking and choosing grounding equipment, wire type, junction boxes and panels. I then put my drafting skills in gear and drew up a three line diagram to satisfy the requirements of the PV System Certification application from the Florida Solar Energy Center. I sent all that paperwork off last night. They have 20 business days from receipt of my $250 payment to respond to my application.

Once I have a PV System Certification, and structural engineering documentation, then I will finally be able to walk into my local AHJ to actually apply for a building permit, and write yet another check.
 

Big-Foot

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Midlothian, TX
Subscribing with high interest in projects like this...
I hope the employment thing turns the corner for you soon..
 

Teken

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Jan 2, 2010
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8,214
Location
The Bad Lands
A long awaited update: About a month ago, I received my structural engineering design to permanently mount twenty Evergreen 220W PV panels on my second story roof in coastal South Florida. The structural engineer I chose for the project used to live two blocks away. He now lives in Colorado. Fortunately, I was able to track him down through Facebook. I now know every detail necessary to keep 20 panels on the roof at 170mph. If you're wondering why I chose to work with an engineer 2,000 miles away, rather than find a local structural engineer, the answer is two fold: in 2010 this particular structural engineer designed the wind mitigation measures my wife and I added to our house built in 1961 to structurally attach the wood frame second floor to the concrete block & stucco first floor (so he is very familiar with my house); and more importantly the only local structural engineer I was able to get a recommendation for blew me off by telling me adding PV to my house wasn't something I wanted to do myself. The uplift on this PV array at 170mph is astounding.

After pouring over my notes and textbook from the "intro to solar" class my father and I took at the local community college in 2011, and a 2008 copy of the NEC, I spent a few nights with Google, picking and choosing grounding equipment, wire type, junction boxes and panels. I then put my drafting skills in gear and drew up a three line diagram to satisfy the requirements of the PV System Certification application from the Florida Solar Energy Center. I sent all that paperwork off last night. They have 20 business days from receipt of my $250 payment to respond to my application.

Once I have a PV System Certification, and structural engineering documentation, then I will finally be able to walk into my local AHJ to actually apply for a building permit, and write yet another check.

I look forward to your project! :thumbup: I want pictures, I want stats, and I want to see you up there sweating! :spit:

I am so happy to see more GJ members talking about solar and how it will impact their personal utility bills.

Keep rockin . . .

Teken . . .
 

FarmerPete

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Jul 24, 2013
Messages
258
Location
Lansing, MI
Update? I'm interested. I don't know if I fully agree with your using it as an investment. I guess it would depend on how much equity the system would give you. It's more like buying an annuity than putting into a savings account. I've thought about contacting some local companies to see what kind of a ROI I can get. Unfortunately, living in Michigan, we don't get quite as much sun as Florida.
 
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where2

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Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
772
Location
South FL
Per Teken's request, I'm working on the detailed install write-up with 50-75 photos. However, I will offer the following brief synopsis of the system:

The PV system received final structural and electrical inspections on July 23rd and is actually running just fine. The bi-directional meter went in on August 1st at ~11AM, and I was able to start production on my lunch hour by stopping by the house to flip the two 15A breakers.

Stat's as of August 15th:
283kWh generated to date. (18.87kWh average per day). Since the beginning of the month, I've fed 145kWh back to the grid, and used 375kWh from the grid for a net of 230kWh I'll pay the POCO for. As you can see, 45% of my power still comes from the grid in one of the hottest months of the year. Last year, my August 2012 bill was for 1280kWh. August 2011, it was 1690kWh! :shocking: I've been optimizing things and killing phantom loads since I read Luvit's 800kWh challenge thread. I was right around 1100kWh last month.

Keep in mind, my house is 100% electric, and my 3.5 ton A/C is running 4-6hrs (hours of actual compressor run time) per day to keep the house within my 79°F-82°F comfort window automated by my Nest thermostat. My electric water heater is timed down to under 4 hours per day, and I will likely revise that timing soon. :thumbup:
 

captain14

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Dec 19, 2012
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Near College Park Maryland 20740
Good thought out process here. I will be following your progress. No batteries on site to be backup when your high speed winds take the power lines? I know those take more storage space also.
 
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where2

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South FL
Good thought out process here. I will be following your progress. No batteries on site to be backup when your high speed winds take the power lines? I know those take more storage space also.

No batteries. :dunno: As a native Floridian with 40+ years experience, the grid is actually up >99.8% of the time. When the grid is not up, I have a generator, and a portable 2cuft Norcold AC/DC refrigerator/freezer. I also have a 50W and/or a 20W 17V(DC) solar panel along with a Morningstar SL-10L-12. If I need more charging capacity, I have plenty of 36V panels... Wonder what I could do with those?

As for battery banks, I have other projects like: the golf cart. ;) Or is it a 36v rolling battery bank?? :willy_nil
 

FarmerPete

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Jul 24, 2013
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258
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Lansing, MI
After reading your post, I did a little more research. I contacted an installer in my area and they gave me a very preliminary estimate. They claim they can do a 6.210kw setup for just over 19k after federal tax credit. It should cover 82% of my usage. The break even if energy prices rise at 5% and my $19k in cash can earn 6% invested would be just over 15 years. I'm curious about it. I may have them out to the house after talking to my wife.
 

megalo

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Jun 25, 2011
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St. Louis, MO
Where are you located? The installed price, before incentive, should be between $3.50/watt on the cheapest end and $5.00/watt on the high end (SunPower in somewhere like CA).
 

FarmerPete

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Lansing, MI
That's more or less what the quoted me. 23 SolarWorld 270 watt panels, 27317.79 for parts, design, permits, and labor. That's $4.399 per watt before rebate. $3.08 after rebate.

I went back over the numbers, and I think they are being a little over zealous with their numbers. They estimated electric costs at $0.16 a KWH. From my bill, it looks like the refundable portion of my bill (the KWH charge) is $0.1249. Also, they have a profit of $0.035 per KWH from selling SREC's. Michigan doesn't have SREC's, so I have to sell them to Ohio or Pennsylvania. It looks like the price for a SREC is currently ~$10. That's $0.01 per KWH. It looks like with those numbers, the time to payoff are closer to 20 years.
 
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megalo

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St. Louis, MO
I definitely would not count on selling SRECs to pay for the system unless there is a long term contract involved. My power company offers to buy 10 years' worth of SRECs up front for $5/ea. Last year it was $50/ea, but I missed out on that.

The payoff can definitely be quite long if your power is relatively cheap and you don't have hefty local incentives.

You can probably get a lower price if you used lower priced panels (such as Trina, or any of the Chinese brands).
 
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where2

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If you're in a state that is dealing in SREC's, then you really ought to look into trading them yourself on the SREC market, if your POCO hasn't tied your hands.

What SREC's are presently worth is a variable, much like the stock market, or the corn market. Look at SCREC Trade or Flett exchange to get some ideas.

FL doesn't participate in an SREC market, so I'll just go along my merry way without any SREC incentive... Generated 21.3kWh today.
 

megalo

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St. Louis, MO
We have SRECs here in Missouri, but as far as I can tell, we can currently only sell them to the POCO. At their current $5/SREC price, I'll probably just hold onto mine and see if they open up the market here.
 

JBourquin

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New York
Let us know when you get your full write-up done.. Please..
Like to know the best place to purchase the hardware.
 
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where2

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Generated 22.5kWh today... I'm probably the only guy in the neighborhood looking forward to my August electric bill! (meter gets read on the 22nd) This bill won't be a full month running the system, but at my current average production rate it'll be $47 less than it would have been. I'm also starting to plan phase 2, the backyard ground mount...
 

FarmerPete

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So, maybe I'm under thinking things, but how hard can it be to design a solar system? I'm referring to someone who lives in the midwest. We don't get tornados here. We almost never get any hail. Lots of snow and rain. Other than getting the panels to the proper angle, it seems like it's pretty much just slap a couple dozen panels on the roof and wire them all up together. I know I'm over simplifying it, but it seems like others like to over complicate it.
 

Teken

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So, maybe I'm under thinking things, but how hard can it be to design a solar system? I'm referring to someone who lives in the midwest. We don't get tornados here. We almost never get any hail. Lots of snow and rain. Other than getting the panels to the proper angle, it seems like it's pretty much just slap a couple dozen panels on the roof and wire them all up together. I know I'm over simplifying it, but it seems like others like to over complicate it.

Yes, and No . . . If the person on question does not understand the NEC / CEC than that could be an issue. If the person does not understand what equipment to use and deploy based on a solar audit.

You can buy what ever you want but if its not properly installed, or selected your output will not be what you expect.

Many people fail to understand the difference between grid tied, off grid, and hybrid.

People also fail to realize that its not always about ROI. If it is then you better move on because that window is going to be long. If its about reducing your monthly bill, that is more realistic but this depends upon the size of the system that is deployed.

Most folks are not prepared to replace thousands of dollars of batteries every 3-5 years for a off grid / hybrid system. Many are also not prepared to maintain said batteries and fail to understand realistic DOD for their batteries and actual use case.

Last, but not least many people fail to realize that being on the grid is cheaper than going solar. Unless you're hit with huge time of use fee's than often times solar / wind does not make sense.

Teken . . .
 

luvit

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Jul 11, 2011
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i've been out on an new line of work and don't get to post much. i'm enjoying this thread, here.
i aim for 25KWh or less per day in ohio.. it's rare for me to get 18KWh, but i can have a day leap to 37KWh if my wife uses that dang clothes dryer. lol .. my home is all electric, like yours.
sounds like you're doing excellent for a florida summer!
 
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