Does anyone know why 3/4 drive "chromed" non-impact sockets are manufactured mostly in 12 points among the high end US, European, and Japanese manufacturers? There are some 6 points here and there, but few and far between. I am totally excluding anything from China in the question.
Q: Why are 3/4 drive chrome sockets mostly 12pts
- Thread starter diyer999
- Start date
Buckgnarly
Well-known member
Breaker bar position is better, sizes are big enough that 12pt does not matter. JMHO....
dutchgray
Well-known member
There are actually a lot of 6 pt 3/4" drive chrome sockets available from the good European makers, but 12 pt are more common, it used to be the same way with 1/2 drive as well.
You dont really need 6 pt in 3/4" drive though.
You dont really need 6 pt in 3/4" drive though.
Richard Cranium
Well-known member
3/4 drive has more meat to the socket, so less of a chance of rounding the nut off.
Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
Also quite a few of the fasteners are 12 pt.
jakemac
Well-known member
I'm thinking that with all the rust and dirt that builds up on large heavy equipment, a 6pt socket would have a harder time fitting on a nut. 
dutchgray
Well-known member
Also when it comes to heavy equipment and large machinery if something does round out they just go straight to the torch and cut the bolt out, some things they dont bother trying to undo the bolts just cut them with the torch, like track plates. That and anything you can do with a 3/4 or inch impact gun gets the impact gun. Pretty much all the plant fitters here have a petrol engined compressor in their vans.
Farmall450
Well-known member
This
Why doesn't it matter? I have two friends who worked as mechanical engineers for Snap-on, one quit and the other guy is still there. I was talking to him this past Friday about this subject. He said he didn't know why that was done, but that it has been like that for many years, and he didn't agree with it, as far as not being any less of an issue, as it is for the smaller sizes. He told me that is the answer you will always hear, that the larger sizes dont make a difference, but that was usually about inch and metric sizes being more interchangeable in the larger sizes. Both of these engineers told me something in engineers language about the angle-axis, axis-angle being different for 6pt and 12pt. That is a well known fact among socket design engineers. He said he doesn't know of any big impact sizes that are 12pt., and he also said he would never use one. I have looked at this angle of axis issue and I could easily see how 6pts hit the flats farther back and at a different angle.
Personally, I think that when you have a good quality 12pt socket, and a quality bolt head, it is far less likely to be an issue. But when the nut points start to round and the socket is not the best fitting, then the rounding can start much easier with a 12pt that is hitting closer to the point of the nut, especially if it is a 12 pt with sloppy clearances, etc. I have seen 3/8 drive go to 27mm, 1/2 drives go to 50mm, and 3/4 drive go as low as 15mm, so, in that respect, its not even a 3/4 drive issue. I suppose that is why I cant follow any logic why so many 3/4 drive chromed sockets are mostly 12 pt.
I have some 3/4 drive 12 pt sockets and they have worked and not slipped, but mine are like new, of fairly good quality with good clearances and I used them on new fasteners. Still, I am curious as to why 3/4 chrome sockets are 12pt, most of the time, other than impacts. As for 3/4 drive tools being bulky and not giving you as much swing that I can understand. But as far as the school of thought that 12 pts can round off a fastener easier or quicker than a 6pt, all things being equal, I fail to see why a bigger size wouldnt matter.
Yes, I know. I had a hard time finding many. Another strange issue, the corner relief area is not manufactured beyond a certain size for many manufacturers. Snap-on is one of the few who continues with their flank drive regardless of size -- smart, maybe pricey too ??? Anyway, just saying you don't need them is an opinion not an answer why they don't make them, except for a few sizes. I could counter that opinion, by asking why are some European mfrs are making them
Last edited:
That is not a well thought out reply. You need to read what my two Snap-on engineer friends said about the axis-angle issue and think of the history of sockets how much of a problem rounding was before flank drive was invented by some company that Snap-on quickly purchased and then that company quietly disappeared from the tool industry.
Not true. The axis angle is the same among all 12 pts regardless of size. I mean that as within a given manufacturer's design. Some of those designs do differ, when you look close enough, even in 6pts too.
Your referring to large inch sizes and large metric sizes being virtually interchangeable for usage on fasteners. That is a different issue and I understand that.
Last edited:
Finky198
Well-known member
I have a large set up of USA Craftsman 3/4” chrome 12 points 7/8” - 2 1/2” 19 - 46mm. Personally I would think it comes down to manufacturing cost. Let say snap on offered complete 3/4 drive 6pt chrome sets. They would still have to produce 12pt as well just to cover 12pt fasteners. That’s a lot of extra product to design, produce, sell, and warranty. And Their customer base has proven that 6pt chrome is just not a heavily used market as most job will make use of impacts and if not a 12pt chrome, otherwise you need something special anyway... most if not all 3/4 drive applications I’ve run into have plenty of space for impacts. The #1 reason I have the chrome is for the 12pts heads And the very occasional thinwall need. I use them most for odd size 12pt axle nut sockets...
Last edited:
Farmall450
Well-known member
No, I'm not. It's a lot harder to round off a 1/8" bolt than a 1+" one
Hard to do that when you posted that tidbit after several responses
Kind of adding another question to this thread, but what I have been curious about is despite making their chrome shallow 3/4 drive sockets in 12pt, I've noticed at least several brands (Wright, Williams, and Proto) make their deep chrome 3/4 drive sockets in 6pt. What might be the reason for that?
four.cycle
Well-known member
Finky198 said:
The OP's first post begs the question: "Why do you need a 3/4" drive 6-point socket?"
Given the applications, there should most likely be more than enough clearance and free space to swing a breaker or ratchet using a 12-point socket.
As noted, the sockets are generally fairly beefy when it comes to wall thickness, minimizing the chance of cracking a socket.
In order to supply both 6-point and 12-point sockets, the manufacturer has to tool up for two different animals.
In order to stock both 6-point and 12-point sockets, the manufacturer (and the distributors) have to carry double the amount of inventory of a relatively expensive product that doesn't have a high turnover rate (compared to the smaller drive sizes.)
Hand tools are, and always have been, a relatively low-profit product.
Manufacturing and stocking both 6-point and 12-point would cut into that already slim margin both the manufacturer and distributor are working on.
Short answer: it comes down to the bottom line, as with most any other product you can name.
Finky198
Well-known member
Well said. 
dutchgray
Well-known member
Stahlwille, Hazet, Beta, Facom all do chrome 6pt in 3/4 drive, there is probably more but thats what I have seen personally.
The Stahlwille has relieved corners, at least up to the high 36mm as that the biggest I have of those.
3/4 sockets last a long time, good makes that is, they are a buy once tool for most who use them professionally, lots of old sets out there you can pick up relatively cheaply but they will be 12pt, because most sockets were 12pt in the past.
12pt makes the most sense for 3/4 for hand use, your almost always need to use a breaker or sliding T bar with a pipe to break large bolts loose, so need the 12pt to get on the bolt, the ratchets are expensive, clunky and have big heads (modern ones are better), so you dont tend to break bolts loose with them.
Plus as I have already said impact wrenches are used wherever possible with 6pt impact sockets, so if you do want a 6pt for hand use you can just use them. Save buying an expensive set of chrome.
If you can round large bolts, say a 30mm with a 12pt socket by hand, your a better man than me, I cant unless the cheater was very long, usually only happens when using a floor jack or excavator boom to turn it.
My own are a mix, but I have more 6pt, I bought whatever good sockets I could get a good price on.
catalytic
Well-known member
Interesting thread -- I have wondered about this. Obviously, the bolts you're driving with a 3/4 drive set have more mass that would need to be sheared off to round them over versus a smaller bolt. However, one is torquing the larger bolts a lot more than smaller bolts, too. It's not clear that the increased mass isn't counterbalanced by the increased torque against it.
My 3/4" drive set is a Wright 12pt, and it's my only 12pt set, as all my sockets are Wright and they don't make 6pt in 3/4 drive. I do wish it were 6pt -- I work on old machinery, and I pretty much only break out the set when fasteners are stuck/breaker bars and sockets are needed. As DEEBO said, clearance isn't an issue with 12pt vs 6pt -- one can always just turn the 6pt's 90° on the breaker bar to get around a clearance issue.
That said, I have used my Wright 12pt sockets (as well as some Proto's, Plumb's, KD, Snap-on 12pt) on some pretty chewed up stuck 1-3/8 and 1-1/2"-ish bolts with long breaker bars and I've never seen any damage to bolt corners (and I've checked the bolt corners carefully after cranking on them!). This includes bolts that I know for a fact were not hardened, and one that was custom machined out of mild steel, and which I had to hang on the end of a breaker bar to loosen. Maybe someone did the math and decided that the extra mass on a 1-1/2" bolt's corners vastly outweighs the additional torque one uses with the longer 3/4" drive breaker bars, such that 12pt is fine.
My 3/4" drive set is a Wright 12pt, and it's my only 12pt set, as all my sockets are Wright and they don't make 6pt in 3/4 drive. I do wish it were 6pt -- I work on old machinery, and I pretty much only break out the set when fasteners are stuck/breaker bars and sockets are needed. As DEEBO said, clearance isn't an issue with 12pt vs 6pt -- one can always just turn the 6pt's 90° on the breaker bar to get around a clearance issue.
That said, I have used my Wright 12pt sockets (as well as some Proto's, Plumb's, KD, Snap-on 12pt) on some pretty chewed up stuck 1-3/8 and 1-1/2"-ish bolts with long breaker bars and I've never seen any damage to bolt corners (and I've checked the bolt corners carefully after cranking on them!). This includes bolts that I know for a fact were not hardened, and one that was custom machined out of mild steel, and which I had to hang on the end of a breaker bar to loosen. Maybe someone did the math and decided that the extra mass on a 1-1/2" bolt's corners vastly outweighs the additional torque one uses with the longer 3/4" drive breaker bars, such that 12pt is fine.
Last edited:
bob15
Well-known member
Snap On didn't purchase the company that invented the "flank Drive/lobular design" until 30-odd years after it was invented; and that company (Bonney) was already out of business thanks to Cooper Tools.
I didn't say when they purchased it, other than quickly. That patent was disputed for years, in litigation for years. There are all kinds of version about what the real truth is now in hindsight many years later, even Snap-on reps do not all tell you the same thing. Btw, Bonney was not the company that invented flank drive, according to some sources I discovered. They were saying it was urea or some other company. Cant recall the other possibility offhand. My sentence was a long one with several thoughts combined.
Last edited:
What vehicle brands use 12pt axles?
bob15
Well-known member
So your definition of quickly is 35 years
Snap On didn't purchase Bonney or their design in the early 1960's when the lobular design/flank drive came out, Snappy bought out Bonney until Cooper shuttered Bonney in the late 1990's.
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
b e c a u s e they have been making them that way for years; with countless sets including a properly designed breaker bar and ratchet. If such a socket set failed to work as intended; they would have faded into history long ago.
With the desire or need for pneumatic impact wrenches; properly designed sets of six point impact sockets are purchased.
Speaking for Myself; with My multiple sets of 12 point chrome AND 6 point impact sockets;;;;;;;; why would I be interested in purchasing a set of 3/4 drive chrome 6 point sockets?
But, I doubt I am the Lone Ranger when it comes to My choice.
Last edited:
kythri
Well-known member
Mr Ratchet
Well-known member
I don't know but, the cost and stocking theory makes a lot of sense. 3/4" driver sockets are not exactly dainty. My 20 sockets from 3/4" to 2 3/8" take up almost as much room as my 1/2" drive std and mm full Hansen trays.
I checked a hand full of nuts just now. The height of a 1" nut was higher than two 1/2" nuts stacked. The same for a 3/4" vs two 3/8", with two 7/16" nuts being the same as the 3/4" nut. So, if that holds true for most bigger fasteners, the do have a little more contact area than smaller ones.
I've used my 3/4" 12 point sockets with 40" breaker on more than a few stubborn square pipe plugs. Haven't had to cut out a plug since I got the longer breaker. Used the 3/4" socket on a few froze up lug nuts. That 12 point socket and long breaker always either break the lug free or sheers the stud. Never had a lug strip with this 12 point socket.
I checked a hand full of nuts just now. The height of a 1" nut was higher than two 1/2" nuts stacked. The same for a 3/4" vs two 3/8", with two 7/16" nuts being the same as the 3/4" nut. So, if that holds true for most bigger fasteners, the do have a little more contact area than smaller ones.
I've used my 3/4" 12 point sockets with 40" breaker on more than a few stubborn square pipe plugs. Haven't had to cut out a plug since I got the longer breaker. Used the 3/4" socket on a few froze up lug nuts. That 12 point socket and long breaker always either break the lug free or sheers the stud. Never had a lug strip with this 12 point socket.
raiderhillbilly
Well-known member
My theory is that a set of 12 point sockets are lighter than a set of 6 point sockets. That makes a noticeable difference when you are carrying a 3/4" set.
Even a set of 1/2" deep sockets feels lighter in 12 point.
Even a set of 1/2" deep sockets feels lighter in 12 point.
ultgar
Well-known member
12pt for accessibility. Facom's 51B series slogging wrenches are all 12pt.
Some Volkswagen, BMW, Toyota/Lexus.