Question about BR breaker replacement

[mrjohnson24]

Hi Folks, long time lurker in these forums, and wanted to ask a question that I'm struggling with and that I'm hoping your collective wisdom will be able to resolve. I apologize if this is too much detail, but the short version is I'm trying to figure out which breakers to buy, and I have some questions related to this.

I own a house (built 2001) with a Cutler-Hammer breaker box, and am in the process of remodeling an attached garage. The permit requires arc fault (AFCI) protection to be in code compliance. The current breaker is a BD2020 (eaton/westinghouse/cutler-hammer tandem 20-Amp) and I'd ideally like to replace it with a "dual fault" or "combination" breaker so that it passes inspection. Lowe's sells the BD2020 - http://www.lowes.com/pd_93807-82364-BD2020_0__?productId=1113805. I consulted the inside of the panel, which states: "use CH/Westinghouse type BD,BJ,BJH,BQ,BQC,BR,BRD,BRH,BRO,BRSN,BRWH,GFCB,GFEP,GFCBH or Challenger type A,C,CBJ,CBJH.HC,HAGF circuit breakers".

I found the BR series breakers on Eaton's website: http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products...eakers/BRCircuitBreakers/BRArcFault/index.htm but I didn't see any combination AFCI/GFCI breakers listed. So I decided to just focus on the AFCI breakers, and found the BRCAF120CS breaker - http://www.lowes.com/pd_292485-82364-BRCAF120CS_0__?productId=3648368

My questions:
1. Is there a replacement breaker for the BD2020 that matches the list specified above by my panel that is a dual-function/combination AFCI/GFCI? I've asked Eaton, and haven't received a reply.

2. Since I have to pay to replace the breaker anyway, I figured I might as well go with dual-function. Is that overkill? Should I stick with an AFCI breaker and GFCI wall sockets at the start of the run instead?

3. If I should stick with an AFCI breaker, it looks (on paper) like the BRCAF120CS will work -- EXCEPT -- that it is NOT a tandem breaker. Does that mean I will need to buy two breakers (and take up two spots on the panel) to replace the current one?

4. Is there any issue with separating the circuits related to the tandem breaker and replacing it with two AFCI - specifically one BD2020 with two BRCAF120CS - breakers? Would I need to buy the retrofit kit, for example?

Thanks again - all replies are much appreciated, and thanks for providing such an informative space. Happy to provide any additional information if any of you need more details.

 

[pattenp]

AFCI breaker that's listed as combination is not also a GFCI breaker. Combination means multiple types of arcs are detected. So don't confuse combination as being dual function. I know Siemens has a dual-function breaker.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Sorry,
There are no tandem AFCI breakers.

 

[mrjohnson24]

Appreciate the information, @pattenp, and apologies if my terminology is incorrect. I was thinking that I'd want to have a "dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker" sold by Eaton marked "AF/GF". See here for more: http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/Products.../AFGF/index.htm?wtredirect=www.eaton.com/afgf

From reading the product specifications, it looks a 20A version of this breaker would be: BRLAFGF120

My questions:
1. Is the "BRL" a different series of breaker that is incompatible with my panel, since it does not list UL compatibility with BRL series? Or is the "L" not significant and is it just another "BR" series breaker?

2. Would I need two of these breakers to replace a tandem BD2020?

 

[mrjohnson24]

Sorry,
There are no tandem AFCI breakers.

Thanks for the response - so then I should plan to replace a tandem breaker with two AFCI breakers, at minimum. Is that correct? And assuming I have an unused breaker spot in the panel, I should be able to proceed with this plan?

Is separating the inputs to the tandem breaker and rewiring them to two individual breakers a relatively straightforward process?

Any thoughts on the Eaton BRLAFGF120 @alfredeneuman?

 

[alfredeneuman]

A tandem breaker is 2 breakers in the size of 1 full size breaker.
You could replace the BD2020 with 1 AFCI breaker, because each of them take up 1 breaker space.

The breaker you linked to both gives both AFCI and GFI protection, and is WAY overpriced at $244.31.

If you want GFI protection just install GFI receptacles on the AFCI protected circuits

In comparison, a BR120CAFCS costs under $38
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-20...ker-BR120CAFCS/202276734?N=5yc1vZbm16Z1z0x9j2

 

[mrjohnson24]

A tandem breaker is 2 breakers in the size of 1 full size breaker. You could replace the BD2020 with 1 AFCI breaker, because each of them take up 1 breaker space.

Thanks! I just got off the phone with Platt, and essentially they said the same thing. Apparently there isn't a compatibility issue between "BR" and "BRL", and BRL is just a newer (< 6 mo old) breaker that works with BR-compatible panels to be in line with NEC 2014 AFCI requirements.

The breaker you linked to both gives both AFCI and GFI protection, and is WAY overpriced at $244.31.

Platt sells them for $49.22 each. https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...ers/Eaton/BRLAFGF120/product.aspx?zpid=130612

Aside from the additional $15 per breaker, would there be any reason in your opinion to stick with GFI outlets and an AFCI protected breaker? Is there enough data on the dual AFCI/GFCI breakers to indicate they trip more frequently, for example?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Theyre making you use afci breakers for a garage,or is the garage being converted into a living area?

 

[mrjohnson24]

Theyre making you use afci breakers for a garage,or is the garage being converted into a living area?

Nope - the garage is being used as a garage. The NEC 2014 requires arc fault resistance for the space (according to the county/inspector/rulebook he showed me).

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Can somebody give me a reference to this requirement in the nec?

 

[_Dock_]

I have never heard of afci being required in a garage either. Usually only gfci.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I don't have a 2014 NEC, but here is what Eaton Cutler-Hammer themselves has to say about the 2014 AFCI requirements.

The requirement for AFCI protection of 125V, 15A or 20A branch circuits serving outlets and devices in dwellings has been expanded to include kitchens and laundry areas. AFCI protection is now required in the following rooms and areas:
- Bedrooms - Dining rooms - Kitchens - Libraries
- Recreation Rooms - Closets - Family rooms - Living rooms
- Sunrooms - Dens - Hallways - Parlors
- Laundry areas - Similar rooms or areas

They don't mention garages at all....

Maybe it's a County rule. mrjohnson24 where do you live?
(That's why it's important to include your location in your profile)

 

[pattenp]

If the intent is to protect the occupants of the dwelling from a possible electrical fire from arc faults why would the circuits in an attached garage be excluded. An attached garage is like a big closet.

 

[Elginz]

If there is something it is a municipal thing. Not NEC.

I would use a AFCI breaker, and a GFCI receptacle at the start of the run. Push the button on the receptacle to reset, I don't like going back to the breaker box way over there.

210.12(A) also includes a change that requires AFCI protection of
branch circuit conductors serving not only outlets but also devices
located in these areas. This change was necessary to ensure that
the branch circuit conductors to a device, such as a switch, will
be provided with AFCI protection. For example, the branch circuit
conductors to a switch in a bedroom that controls outdoor lighting
will require AFCI protection.

Unless he uses something like this to make it extend to the garage.

 

[alfredeneuman]

If the intent is to protect the occupants of the dwelling from a possible electrical fire from arc faults why would the circuits in an attached garage be excluded. An attached garage is like a big closet.

Here is where they differ:
An attached garage has a fire rated wall or ceiling, wherever it is common to the dwelling.

 

[mrjohnson24]

AFCI protection is now required in the following rooms and areas: Laundry areas

Thats probably the reason - my laundry area is in/attached to the current garage space.

Maybe it's a County rule. mrjohnson24 where do you live?
(That's why it's important to include your location in your profile)

Amador county, CA. My apologies - will fix my profile to include that information.

 

[mrjohnson24]

For example, the branch circuit
conductors to a switch in a bedroom that controls outdoor lighting
will require AFCI protection.

Yep - I have that as well.

 

[mrjohnson24]

Thanks for these informative responses, suggestions and feedback, folks. I'm truly grateful.

I received confirmation from Eaton this morning that BRC and BRL breakers should work with my panel. The BRC breakers with AFCI only are cheaper with my Lowe's discount so I figured I'd start with two of those to replace the tandem breaker, and see how that goes.

 

[Norcal]

CA is on the 2011 NEC.

 

[alfredeneuman]

CA is on the 2011 NEC.

Bingo!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Bingo!

I was about to say the same thing...

 

[Mustang51js]

2014 code requires pretty much everything new on a afci,even if your state adopts 2014 code you have 6 months to use existing code before you have to change over,just need to write it on permit which code you are using.

 

[Norcal]

2014 code requires pretty much everything new on a afci,even if your state adopts 2014 code you have 6 months to use existing code before you have to change over,just need to write it on permit which code you are using.

CA has been on the 2011 for a while & so any 2014 requirements are not relevant for CA.

 

[Mustang51js]

CA has been on the 2011 for a while & so any 2014 requirements are not relevant for CA.

I'm not sure if any states are on 2014 yet,but hopefully most states don't adopt the new arc fault stuff unless they lower the price of breakers and have some 2 pole arc faults made more available. It's a big expense at $40 a breaker

 

[alfredeneuman]

I'm not sure if any states are on 2014 yet

A bunch of them are.

http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php

 

[dw1]

KY is on 2014 NEC

 

[foolishpride]

KY is on 2014 NEC

Kentucky has electricity?

 

[dw1]

Kentucky has electricity?

Yep, I still climb the pole to make a phone call (thats if I can find my shoes)

 

[spurlockda]

I am in the process of replacing breakers in an old house Reno and I'm using the BR Arcfaults. I was also thinking of just using a plain old BR CAFCI and putting a plain ol square GFCI but somebody reminded me that the $15 I save by buying the plain BR CAFCI at Lowe's - I'll just have to spend it buying the plain old GFCI.

Thus it becomes more a form-fit-function of whether you want to put a regular plug in the outlet box for style concerns or whatever. For me it was a matter of convenience for me to use the dual purpose for the new under-kitchen-sink outlet for the disposal and dishwasher. But for the bathrooms and kitchen that already have the correct wiring and stuff GFCIs, I just put in the plain ol CAFCIs.

Also, you can buy the cross connecting pins and clips and stuff to make the tandem CAFCIs and their variations into two-pole breakers. The Eaton website has an eCatalogue where you can find those small part's numbers.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Yep, I still climb the pole to make a phone call (thats if I can find my shoes)

You actually know how to spell too? You weren't born there were you? Just raised there?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am in the process of replacing breakers in an old house Reno and I'm using the BR Arcfaults. I was also thinking of just using a plain old BR CAFCI and putting a plain ol square GFCI but somebody reminded me that the $15 I save by buying the plain BR CAFCI at Lowe's - I'll just have to spend it buying the plain old GFCI.

Thus it becomes more a form-fit-function of whether you want to put a regular plug in the outlet box for style concerns or whatever. For me it was a matter of convenience for me to use the dual purpose for the new under-kitchen-sink outlet for the disposal and dishwasher. But for the bathrooms and kitchen that already have the correct wiring and stuff GFCIs, I just put in the plain ol CAFCIs.

Also, you can buy the cross connecting pins and clips and stuff to make the tandem CAFCIs and their variations into two-pole breakers. The Eaton website has an eCatalogue where you can find those small part's numbers.

do u have a link to this? Im curious how 2 single tandem breakers can be made into a double pole common trip breaker. I just cant picture this in my head.

 

[dw1]

You actually know how to spell too? You weren't born there were you? Just raised there?

Born and raised here