Question about garage ceiling

[Brianc500]

I have a 2 car garage attached to a 1950's Ranch, I want to make some more room in ceiling area for lights and just to clean up the overall look. Can I remove the 2x4's shown in the photo below, if I do, will I need to put something else in to support the structure more. I was also thinking of putting insulation between the trusses and covering them with drywall or OSB.

 

[nehog]

The vertical 2x4s might be removable, the other horizontal pieces you've marked are important structural members and will need to stay put.

 

[Brianc500]

The vertical 2x4s might be removable, the other horizontal pieces you've marked are important structural members and will need to stay put.

That *****, maybe I just need to put in a ceiling and close off that upper section all together? Can I run more horizontal beams across the span so I can attach an OSB ceiling to them?

 

[Kevin54]

You can remove them, BUT......you will need to put collar ties in. As your garage is now, the joist going side to side are keeping your walls pulled together. Now if you understand that, step two.....

The vertical 2x's aren't doing anything but holding up the ceiling joist. You could take them out anytime, but depending on the ceiling joist length, the ceiling joist would bow. Next step.....

If you pull out the ceiling joist, look up at your rafters where they are tied into the ridge beam. You have nothing holding the walls, so the rafters at the peak will want to spread. When they spread they will push out on your walls. The more they push on the walls, the more the walls will want to spread your rafters.

Collar ties will remedy that. Come down a foot or so from the ridge and run a 2x4 horizontally from side to side at each rafter, keeping the two side to side rafters from wanting to spread. That's the problem you see with a lot of old garages when they start racking side to side and the walls are bowing out and the roof looks like a swayback old horse.

Almost forgot.......Cut one collar tie to the size you need. Fasten it either at the front or back rafters. Now go to the opposite end of the garage and measure carefully. Make a mark that matches the dimensions of the opposite end collar tie. Now run a chalk line and snap it. Now measure down from the chalk line to your wall. If you want to put a ceiling in, you want the sloped portion on both sides equal, and you want to keep the horizontal top ceiling piece running straight front to back. Nothing looks worse than a racked ceiling.

 

[Brianc500]

You can remove them, BUT......you will need to put collar ties in. As your garage is now, the joist going side to side are keeping your walls pulled together. Now if you understand that, step two.....

The vertical 2x's aren't doing anything but holding up the ceiling joist. You could take them out anytime, but depending on the ceiling joist length, the ceiling joist would bow. Next step.....

If you pull out the ceiling joist, look up at your rafters where they are tied into the ridge beam. You have nothing holding the walls, so the rafters at the peak will want to spread. When they spread they will push out on your walls. The more they push on the walls, the more the walls will want to spread your rafters.

Collar ties will remedy that. Come down a foot or so from the ridge and run a 2x4 horizontally from side to side at each rafter, keeping the two side to side rafters from wanting to spread. That's the problem you see with a lot of old garages when they start racking side to side and the walls are bowing out and the roof looks like a swayback old horse.

That makes sense, I'll put in the ties first, and take the joists out one at a time to make sure everything is secure.

 

[Kevin54]

That makes sense, I'll put in the ties first, and take the joists out one at a time to make sure everything is secure.

You got it

 

[pattenp]

Hold on there, collar ties are not for preventing wall spread. Rafter ties are for that. Read the following before you do anything.

http://www.nachi.org/collar-rafter-ties.htm

 

[Thruxton]

I did some homework on raising the ceiling in my 19 X 19, which had a similar structure. What I learned was, at least in my area, collar ties would not work, but I could use collar beams. The rule of thumb I used was these beams, for me 2 X 8's on 16" centers, could be placed no higher than one third of the height of the ridge-to-plate vertical distance. This gave me enough room to get a scissors lift in place, which for me was the point of the exercise. There have been a number of posts on this forum about this mod, I can't cite the threads but a search (and it did take me a while) should help you find them.

 

[Thruxton]

dang, pattenp beat me to it- rafter ties=collar beams. There was an article a long time ago in Fine Homebuilding that detailed the point he makes.

 

[pattenp]

What you're calling a collar beam is in fact a rafter tie and it is to be installed within the bottom third of the height. So what you did is good and correct. Never just use a collar tie to do the job of preventing wall spread.

I did some homework on raising the ceiling in my 19 X 19, which had a similar structure. What I learned was, at least in my area, collar ties would not work, but I could use collar beams. The rule of thumb I used was these beams, for me 2 X 8's on 16" centers, could be placed no higher than one third of the height of the ridge-to-plate vertical distance. This gave me enough room to get a scissors lift in place, which for me was the point of the exercise. There have been a number of posts on this forum about this mod, I can't cite the threads but a search (and it did take me a while) should help you find them.

 

[pattenp]

Thruxton, we're just typing all over the top of each other.

 

[Brianc500]

Hold on there, collar ties are not for preventing wall spread. Rafter ties are for that. Read the following before you do anything.

http://www.nachi.org/collar-rafter-ties.htm

Great article, that clears things up a lot, I think i'll do both just to be safe.

 

[Smiliesafari]

After you get the collar ties in you might want to think about a grid and tile ceiling. I did mine with grid and tile and used 2" foam board for the tile. It's a nice ceiling and insulated at the same time. If there's ever a need to access anything above the ceiling then you only have to remove a tile.

 

[RCStocker]

The vertical 2x4's keep the cross members form sagging. the cross pieces/ rafters keep the walls form spreading. You don't have enough rafters to support dry wall. You would need to put them every 2 ft. or closer and You would need hang each one with a 2x4.
It is not built to support dry wall. You can go in and put in the rafters and put in a laminated beam above them then put the rafters on hangers supported by the beam. Then you can dry wall. A drop in celling will get dirty over time and if you are in a damp area the metal will rust over time if you do not heat the garage. If it were me I would spend the money to put in the missing rafters and build a beam. Then dry wall the entire garage. I think you will find it cheaper than a drop in celling. Then what do I know. I have only been a general contractor sense 1972 and an architect sense 1996. I would through insulation in the walls and insulate the attic of the garage. Then I would put in a window AC unit and make a nice man cave.

 

[JimVonBaden]

You can probably do it something like mine by moving the cross beams up a but.

Jim

 

[pattenp]

When you say add more rafters do you mean more ceiling joist. Rafters are the members that support the roof deck.

The vertical 2x4's keep the cross members form sagging. the cross pieces/ rafters keep the walls form spreading. You don't have enough rafters to support dry wall. You would need to put them every 2 ft. or closer and You would need hang each one with a 2x4.
It is not built to support dry wall. You can go in and put in the rafters and put in a laminated beam above them then put the rafters on hangers supported by the beam. Then you can dry wall. A drop in celling will get dirty over time and if you are in a damp area the metal will rust over time if you do not heat the garage. If it were me I would spend the money to put in the missing rafters and build a beam. Then dry wall the entire garage. I think you will find it cheaper than a drop in celling. Then what do I know. I have only been a general contractor sense 1972 and an architect sense 1996. I would through insulation in the walls and insulate the attic of the garage. Then I would put in a window AC unit and make a nice man cave.

 

[Kevin54]

Pattenp...you are correct and thank you for making that correction.

I mentioned collar ties because it doesn't look like a very steep pitch 3/12 maybe. But yes, I should have said "rafter tie" as does JVB's photo shows.

 

[Thruxton]

You can probably do it something like mine by moving the cross beams up a but.
Jim

Pretty much what I did, but I tapered the raftercollarbeamtie ends to match the roof slope, gave me more nailing room (my excuse for anality). (And pattenp, note I waited this time ).

 

[Thruxton]

Just wanted to add one thing- take a look at the rafter-plate joint in Jim's pics and you'll see the hurricane ties, which I used also (see below- they just peek out over the top edge of the DW). Highly recommend these! You'll also see in mine the old beams, with added reinforcement, which I replaced.

View media item 31127

 

[Kevin54]

Just wanted to add one thing- take a look at the rafter-plate joint in Jim's pics and you'll see the hurricane ties, which I used also (see below- they just peek out over the top edge of the DW). Highly recommend these! You'll also see in mine the old beams, with added reinforcement, which I replaced.

View media item 31127

I may be wrong on this, but I think almost any structure is required by code to have them. I know that when I built the family room on, and when I built my garage, they were a part of the code requirements.