Question about insulation and Pex

[dlhindiana]

Has anyone used the "Hydrofoam" made by Nudura or any products like it made for radiant heat? Thoughts

Has anyone used Pert instead of Pex for radiant heat? Thoughts?

 

[jonjon1]

Hydrofoam is not cheap, and not as easy as it looks... They have sales videos of the stuff falling into place, BS...

Use regular foam and reflective bubble wrap together {still cheaper the hf}, then just staple the pex down with a walking stick..

For the tuning use Wirsbo Uponor pex, and upsize it, if they tell you 1/2" use 5/8"...

Use delta t controlled pumps and regular thermostats {no floor sensors}
thats the best way to do a floor, that I have ever seen...

 

[ryan77]

how much per sq ft. to do the radiant floor heat your way jojon?

 

[dlhindiana]

Thanks for your input. The guy pouring the floor said he has done many floors with pex stapled and the staples always come out (he didn't specify the kind of staples that were used). He said to use wire mesh and tie pex to it.

$1300 ish foam and mesh. $1600 ish hydrofoam.

 

[jonjon1]

Thanks for your input. The guy pouring the floor said he has done many floors with pex stapled and the staples always come out (he didn't specify the kind of staples that were used). He said to use wire mesh and tie pex to it.

$1300 ish foam and mesh. $1600 ish hydrofoam.

Well you have to go with the guy doing the floor BUT, I have fixed floors where the mesh caused a leak!!!

And you dont need mesh and zip ties, and I will give you a dollar if you can pull the 2.5" malco staples out of a piece of foam....
http://malcoproducts.com/product/hvacr/in-floor-radiant-heating/radiant-heat-tools/foamboard-staples

I have the walking stick stapler and its SOOOOO MUCH FASTER than mesh and ties, I used to use the mesh and even had the tie pliers {also made by malco} http://malcoproducts.com/product/hvacr/in-floor-radiant-heating/radiant-heat-tools/pex-to-wire-tool and the staples still work MUCH BETTER, and you don't have metal touching your pex,.....


Think about it, heat and cool a tube it expands and conracts constantly, now put that at a bend with the pressure of concrete and do it for years, you know what happens next, abrasion, then god forbid your mixing valve dies and you get a nice hot shot of 180 in there a few times, you will be chipping away to fix your leaks... Wh risk it, plastic stables, faster, easier, and more betta...

good luck...

PS one of hydrofoams selling points is no wire mesh...

 

[jonjon1]

how much per sq ft. to do the radiant floor heat your way jojon?

It depends on the contractor, the time is much less my way so there should be less labor charge and the materials vs just foam and wire are very close..

A roll of reflective bubble costs me about $260 for 500 sq feet {4ftx125ft rolls}

Now the foam varies greatly in cost, just depends on what you want to spend, the thicker and high R value obviously the more expensive and better of a product you get. Also the installation is going to get you better results, when I do floors, I tape my joints, I carefully cut the foam so there are no gaps, I put a barrier so the floor doesnt touch the footing directly..

I also run my pex a certain way so that feeds and returns are staggered, while everyone else worries about equal length loops, I pay attention to the buildings greater heat loss areas...

Its one of them things, you can just do it and it will work and everyone will love it, but when the customer is comparing pictures of worksmanship going through my portfolio, theres a reason I landed 98% of submitted proposals...

Plus we were fast, because I embraced stuff like the walking stick, to save time {which when paying guys by the hour is important} I could make up for using the better materials, but when giving a customer apples to apples my price would be better than the competitions because my time was less...

 

[dlhindiana]

Thanks for the additional info. My guess is the staples he is talking about are the ones meant for wood and people are using the wrong staples. It sounds like you have used the Hydrofoam before. I am curious as to what is so hard about it? The video does make it look very easy.

 

[jonjon1]

Thanks for the additional info. My guess is the staples he is talking about are the ones meant for wood and people are using the wrong staples. It sounds like you have used the Hydrofoam before. I am curious as to what is so hard about it? The video does make it look very easy.

We used it once and it was a demo install, so never got cement, it was at an outdoor home show and I wanted something that looked better than foam and staples...

the tubing would not stay put, its impossible to walk across with out interrupting it, I don't know how they get it to stay in there, it was also defroming when we were walking on it and putting pressure on it, it turned into a nightmare, and the stuff we had was smaller panels {not 4x8} and since they have their own design, I see it as more waste, and more work lining everything up.. Just not how I want to do my jobs.

You start with a nice base, lay bubble wrap and foam, put the tubing on the uncoiler, roll it out and staple it down as you go. A single person can do a 1500 sq ft 6 circuit floor in 5 hours and not kill himself..
I build a box, 2x10 with no top and the front of it only a 2x6 {so it is open on the top and on the bottom front for the tubing to come in and out.}, inside that box I put a piece of unistrut, as I feed the tubes through it gest clipped into the unit strut, when you pour your floor you pour so about 2"s of the box stick out of the floor...

I have had reps from uponor take pictures of my jobs for their brochures. I had a company looking to produce my boxes out of plastic with with clips built in and recesses for the tubing...

 

[dlhindiana]

Thanks again. Very helpful and good info. I was concerned the PEX wouldn't stay in the Hydrofoam. You have any pictures or point me in a direction of pictures of the box you made? I understand what you are describing but would still be nice to see.

 

[thatkid]

jonjon,

What do you use for slab reinformcent?

 

[Firebrick43]

Reflective bubble insulation is worthless under a slab. Reflective radiant barriers need an air space to reflect into or they don't work. Its physics and can not be gotten around. the marketers use pure BS and are the modern day Snake oil salesman.

The bubbles will either deflate after a few years or be crushed outright by the concrete. Only value under a slab is as a vapor barrier and one would be better served by a true under concrete barrier such as steggowrap with would be cheaper and much stronger.

The only place radiant bubble has a use is as a condensation blanket under a metal roof or in an uninsulated garage door but polyiso would be better in a garage door as well.

 

[rburke65]

There is not any R value in bubble wrap

 

[Moss]

I used crete heat insulation and it wasn't much more expensive than just the foam insulation. Did it myself. Saved a ton of time and it was very easy to walk the pipe into it and I'm very happy with it.

I used steel mesh and there was no issues at all with the pipes they were out of the way and of course we were careful but it was easy to pull the wire into slab etc.

 

[Metal-Marc]

jonjon,

What do you use for slab reinformcent?

Jonjon is long gone. This is now a zombie thread thanks to a bot bump.