Question about service entrance.

[Zeke]

This is from another forum I visit.

The transformer (green box) is about 20 feet from the new barn. I want to put the property's main panel on the barn and make the panels in the house sub-panels. He's concerned that the wire would have to go under the driveway - but the wire already goes under the driveway!

First, I wondered about he SEC being under the drive and if conduit was an answer. Second, I wondered about having the main breaker 300 feet from the main house. I think he's OK but I thought I'd ask here for his benefit.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Who is 'he'? The homeowner, the contractor, the utility? Unless there are local codes that prevent it, I don't see any issue with having the main panel in the barn and the house being a sub panel. I'm a little more concerned about the transformer - it looks like it's not sitting level and is in a low place where water could run into it, but that's more of the responsibility of the utility.

 

[Zeke]

The question was posted by the owner. There is a general contractor on the job. Apparently they are just wrapping up the framing and the electrician is in the wings ready to go. I'm sure from the gist of things that the PoCo is being consulted, or maybe not just yet. Sorry, asking a question on another's behalf is not the easiest thing. He's a friend, that's all.

 

[Norcal]

I found the thread, if the service is located on the "barn"/garage the conductors going to the house are not SE conductors, just a feeder and will have to be a 4-wire feed and the grounded (neutral) & grounding conductors will have to be separated in the house panel, as to burial as long as they are buried to the proper depth as required in the NEC.

 

[patrickw1956]

Hello all, I am the home owner that has been asking Zeke these questions on another board. I'm glad he directed me here.
I'm not doing any of this work myself, it's all between the utility company and the electrician. The general contractor was assuming we would run 300 feet of 4 conductor cable from the house to the barn (at $7 a foot just for the cable). When the electrician came out he suggested the solution of putting the main panel on the new structure and tying the cable that current runs from the transformer to the house into the new main panel - if the utility company was OK with it. This would save me thousands of $$. I'm just curious about if this is possible, legal, etc because it sounds too good to be true. It all came out late Friday, so I'm on pins and needles and I won't be hearing from them until late next week.

 

[Sokoloff]

If the cable currently being planned under the drive is 3 conductors (L1, L2, and center-tap neutral) supply cable, that cable is not sufficient as a feeder cable (which requires 4 conductors, including a separate earth grounding conductor in addition to the center-tap neutral [they are electrically bonded together only at the first service entrance to the property and are thereafter kept separated]).

 

[MattT]

I wouldn't worry about the driveway. I worked at a sawmill that had several runs under gravel "driveways" and the dirt yard. Only problem I saw was a direct burial service that was only maybe a foot deep. And that's with 80,000# plus vehicles numerous times a day. So direct burial at the proper depth will be fine but conduit is cheap insurance.

I'm guessing house currently has a meter base which can be used for emergency disconnect. Or easily replaced with an actual disconnect.

The big unknown/potential showstopper is whether the existing service cable is 3 or 4 wire and whether it's in pipe or direct burial. Worst case is 3 wire direct burial. I guess it could be carefully dug up and re-used, at least in theory........

 

[Stuart in MN]

If the cable currently being planned under the drive is 3 conductors (L1, L2, and center-tap neutral) supply cable, that cable is not sufficient as a feeder cable (which requires 4 conductors, including a separate earth grounding conductor in addition to the center-tap neutral [they are electrically bonded together only at the first service entrance to the property and are thereafter kept separated]).

This is the key thing. For a sub panel you'll need separate neutral and ground wires. If it was the original service cable from the utility, it's likely that it won't work for what was suggested, but it's easy enough to check.

Still, even if you have to run new wire from the new building to the house, I think it makes more sense than having to supply power to the new building from the house, since it's only a few feet from the utility transformer.

 

[patrickw1956]

Still, even if you have to run new wire from the new building to the house, I think it makes more sense than having to supply power to the new building from the house, since it's only a few feet from the utility transformer.

I suppose boring under the existing driveway and patio (about 100 feet) makes more sense than digging a 300 foot trench. Thanks for your insight guys.

 

[patrickw1956]

Good news. I called the power company to find out what a separate account with separate meter would cost. It’s only $8 a month plus the cost of electricity and taxes. I can pay $96 a year for a lot of years and still spend less than running a bunch of wire will cost.

 

[Jim greengo]

I'd bury pipe for the service from garage to house sub panel,then the power co shouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[ard]

Good news. I called the power company to find out what a separate account with separate meter would cost. It’s only $8 a month plus the cost of electricity and taxes. I can pay $96 a year for a lot of years and still spend less than running a bunch of wire will cost.

Check on billing... will two separate bills splitting X kwh be the same as one bill for X kwh?

 

[dcg9381]

The transformer (green box) is about 20 feet from the new barn. I want to put the property's main panel on the barn and make the panels in the house sub-panels. He's concerned that the wire would have to go under the driveway - but the wire already goes under the driveway!

Just FYI - I've done pretty much exactly that. My lot has a transformer in a box, just like yours. We specified 320A service from the transformer to the meter socket, then built 2 x 200A panels on either side of the meter.

One panel feeds the "main residence". One feeds the shop. Anything downstream from these panels is considered a sub-panel. But this way I only pay for one "meter fee". The main residence is 277 feet from the panel - and yea, wire cost is $1500 or so.


Is your new "meter" off that same transformer? Because if so, someone is going to have to pay to run wire... PoC or your electrician (you). Here, the PoC gives a "flat fee" towards new service, anything beyond that credit is paid for out of pocket. IE - you might check what it's going to cost to install that meter.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Good news. I called the power company to find out what a separate account with separate meter would cost. It’s only $8 a month plus the cost of electricity and taxes. I can pay $96 a year for a lot of years and still spend less than running a bunch of wire will cost.

Be careful. The second service may be billed at a commercial TOU rate with demand charges.

Might end up costing you a lot more

 

[ArcticGabe]

I called my local PoCo to ask for a separate meter when I built my garage since the garage is only about 40' from the pole vs 150' from my main panel. They told me that only one meter is allowed for any residential property. I dropped it at that, but didn't think to ask if I could get commercial service to the new garage.

 

[patrickw1956]

Be careful. The second service may be billed at a commercial TOU rate with demand charges.

Might end up costing you a lot more

The power company engineer came out. It seems I have three options.

Install a “panel board”

Put the meter and main panel on the garage and run new wire to a sub panel at the house. This involves boring under driveway and patio. (About 80 feet).

Additional meter on garage and pay $8 per month and pay farm rate for electricity.

The third option is by far the cheapest, as my electricity usage will be very low.

The barn is 21 feet from the transformer and the minimum allowable is 25 feet. Since it’s not a dwelling they are going to allow the current positioning of the transformer.

This is a cautionary tale for me. I should have made sure the GC had talked to EVERYBODY before he started digging. His plan of powering the building from the house was unworkable, and he didn’t know it until he called in the electrician. At that point the framing was already up. We could easily have put the building too close to the transformer or backed into some other $$$ snag. I think we got off easy on this one.

 

[Sokoloff]

This is a cautionary tale for me. I should have made sure the GC had talked to EVERYBODY before he started digging. His plan of powering the building from the house was unworkable, and he didn’t know it until he called in the electrician. At that point the framing was already up. We could easily have put the building too close to the transformer or backed into some other $$$ snag. I think we got off easy on this one.

Yeah. However, this is what a general contractor gets paid to do. And he didn't do it very well this time.

If you were going to walk behind him and double/triple check that all the subs were coordinated, then what do you need a GC for?

 

[dcg9381]

How much is the panel board?
Around here, we're able to do two mains off a single meter. If allowed, this would probably work for you. Your house would retain existing service, and you'd be able to do the shop how ever you want. It's essentially a meter socket that is dual-lug, which allows you to split...

A 200A switch for your home (full panel) runs around $250. Dunno on the meter socket.. So I'm guessing <$750.

Your "new meter" fees are a fraction of mine, so doing a drop at $8/mo seems good too, especially if your electricity is at a farm rate.

https://i.ibb.co/1nzSTRP/pg6-320-A-meter-***.jpg