Question for construction guys

[xscorex]

I know this is kinda off topic but I have a question for the Construction professionals on the board. I have a bachelors degree and several years of management experience in the transportation field. Well, my wife has been in construction for awhile and she consistently made more money than I did even when she is in lower level positions, so it seems as if this is a well compensated field. Ive always liked building things and Ive been out of work for going on 8 months so we have decided to try and put a crew together and get a few contract jobs. Here is the problem, even though she knows the business in the office such as contracts, bids, and estimating and I know about managing workers, I have no experience in construction other than a college furniture design class and renovating my basement by myself. I would like to get an entry level job as a worker on a crew and get a good feel for the work and learn some stuff before trying to assemble a crew. My other thought was taking a 2 year Construction management class at the local community college. It should take me a little over a year as I already have a bachelors.

I guess what Im asking is how do I get onto a crew in an entry level position? Should I even bother with the college classes or would I be better off working for $9 an hour for that year learning all the on the job stuff? When I was young you could go to "action Labor" and you showed up in the morning and you got paid in the afternoon for doing menial construction stuff. I haven't been able to find anything like that in Charlotte. Are those not around anymore? Could I just stand at the contractors entrance at home depot early in the morning with a sign? Is that how mexicans do it? Im totally clueless here. Thanks alot guys! I look forward to your responses

 

[38Chevy454]

You will need a contractor's license to do work. Also some kind of insurance. OJT is probably the best way to learn, but don't tell the contractor you are trying to get a job working for, they probably won't hire you.

 

[xscorex]

Yeah we were thinking about starting as sub contractors. Here in nc you don't need a license unless you are a gc. We already have a business license and insurance will run about 3k. Before I do that though id like to work a year or two to get on the job training. Problem is everyone seems to want skilled workers which I am not. Its the whole chicken and the egg problem

 

[AndysMBgarage]

About 14 years ago I was in a similar situation. I wanted to get into construction and my wife was book keeping for builders. I started a part time Cert 3 course in construction with the emphasis on setout, working drawings, timber framing, estimating and site safety. A couple of years ago I did a 16 week short course to get my builders registration. Now I still work full time as an account manager but I build and develop on the side, which needs a broad knowledge of all construction code and requirements. It's the site insurance thats very difficult to get. My wife now runs an office for a small builder and civil engineer so both the office and on-site sides are covered. In Australia a healthy wage can even be earned building decks, pergolas, renovations and maintainence of property without the high cash outlay and risk having staff on the books. Use the construction work you complete as a resume to get a job as a site supervisor for another builder. Then you'll get well paid and learn a hell of a lot in a short time.

You can labor on site for small $$$ but you will only learn so much. Other trades will soon get tired of questions on site so I recommend the study option.

In Australia the Building Commission regulate licencing of builders. I imagine the US have a similar body. Look on their website for more info.
http://www.buildingcommission.com.au/www/html/980-domestic-builder.asp

Good Luck

 

[Zeke]

Hell, most construction company owners don't know everything about the trade they are in. Good business skills are a lot harder to come by than trade skills. Get a good lead man and if he is loyal promote him to manger. Let the manger and his crews take care of the field work and you take care of business.

Good estimating is also essential, so spend your time learning prices and costs so you can make money. Ask your lead man if he thinks you are on the money. Don't try to hide the books from the employees, let them be part of the business. You draw a modest salary in keeping with what others make. If you have excessive profits (not likely, but it does happen) pass out bonuses and invest for yourself.

Buying your office building is one of the best investments. Your books will show that as overhead AFA the employees are concerned. But in the end you have real estate to show for your "expenses." Don't drive a friggen' Mercedes to the office. Drive a modest car or truck. Your employees and customers will not be suspicious of that ethos.

You can't hold the nail while your carpenter hits it, so let the workers work. Hire the best you can afford and get rid of the slackers when you can. Be reasonable with your people and your customers and hope they will do much the same with you. There will be some bumps in the road.

 

[Toolfool]

A year or two in the field isn't going to teach you very much. I've been in construction over 27 years and still learn every day. As already stated, find good people, employees and subs, and let them do what they do best. I occasionally work for a contractor who sold medical supplies before deciding to build houses. Right from the beginning he let his subs know that he depended on them for "honest" input, and he rewarded it by using the same guys every job. He started with spec-level homes and now builds multi-million dollar customs. He learned a lot of lessons that cost him money out of his own pocket. I believe his key to success is giving the customer the best product possible for their money.

 

[xscorex]

Thanks for the input guys, im just scared im getting in over my head. Just for more info my wife is asian and we have put the company in her name so we can be hub certified and already have a few small projects promised to us. We want todo commercial jobs mainly. Again im just scared goin into a business I've never worked in. So far in this thread I've learned, on the job networking and learning will be more helpful than classes and to hire a good dedicated lead man. Before this I ran my familys trucking company which did about 3 million a year with 40 employees. Im hoping I can translate that success into construction

 

[Stuart in MN]

Construction management can be a good field. I have a friend who does it, he works for a property management firm that owns a lot of office buildings, and is responsible for running all their construction projects - repairs, upgrades, remodelings, expansions, and so forth. However, I understand there are a bunch of certifications you have to get to move up the ladder.

You can also do this sort of work for regular construction firms, as well as for some engineering consulting firms who oversee construction projects. For these kinds of companies you may end up spending a lot of time on the road, as you have to be on site wherever they're building something.

 

[Zeke]

Again, if you don't estimate right, you will either not get the jobs or lose money. It's that tight. I'm a contractor and one person I will not hire is an estimator nor will I let a salesperson price a job. Neither have any equity in the job.

 

[pstnbly]

Please don't take this as a put down, just an observation of someone who has spent 38 yrs leaning and perfecting the craft of homebuilding. There are plenty of book smart people in this industry, but few who posses job savvy. I'm sadend by the state of the trades in this country, very few are students of their craft, fewer still who come up through a cast system (apprentice, journey, master) it's more about faster,cheaper,more, and to hell with doing the right thing by the customer, as long as the check clears.


My advice is unless you can surround yourself with quality tradespeople and manage them well the only other way is to learn a trade. That can start in class, but only through experience gained on the job can you really know what this field is about.I've seen them come and seen them go, I've seen the customers that have paid the price of the "checkbook builders" and the bad architects with no relationship to real world circumstances in construction and the results are never pretty.

Is there money to be made? Of course, it's all risk reward, lot's of risk, you'll be competing against illegal labor and low life scab contractors in a severly depressed market where everyone is hungry and will sell their next of kin out for that next job. This game as many others is not for the faint of heart. If you are anxious or scared maybe your little voice is telling you something. If you are up for it I wish you godspeed an good luck. Maybe a little harsh, but better a little tough love up front than a bad wake-up call later.

 

[MalibuLX3]

You might consider posting over at Contractor Talk. Lots of experienced people over there willing to share their knowledge.

 

[wssix99]

Thanks for the input guys, im just scared im getting in over my head. Just for more info my wife is asian and we have put the company in her name so we can be hub certified and already have a few small projects promised to us. We want todo commercial jobs mainly. Again im just scared goin into a business I've never worked in. So far in this thread I've learned, on the job networking and learning will be more helpful than classes and to hire a good dedicated lead man. Before this I ran my familys trucking company which did about 3 million a year with 40 employees. Im hoping I can translate that success into construction

This doesn't work anymore. My wife is a WBE in Chicago and it took us three years to prove that my paycheck came from somewhere else and I'm not involved in the business.

I've been in the field for 15 years and now advise consult for multi-national construction companies. My best advice is to NOT work in the same company as your wife. The industry is so up-and-down that having both of you depend on a single source if construction industry income is a disaster waiting to happen. The company goes under and you both go under. If you both want to be in the industry, better go at it with two separate companies.

As folks pointed out above, there's no substitute for learning on the job. If you want to do the hands-on work, you'll need to work under someone in the field and learn as an apprentice.

If you want to get in to management, then you'll need some training. A two year degree in Construction Management is a good start. Construction projects are generally high risk/low margin and require knowledge of critical path management. There are very few places where you can learn this outside of the classroom.

If you want to go in to general contracting, then you'll need some more schooling. (I'd suggest a four year business or similar degree.) You'll also need a trust fund, a rich relative to die and will you cash, or will need to rob a bank for seed money. Construction business are "capital intensive" and require a working knowledge of accounting to be successful. The "money" in a contracting business is managed on paper. Most companies that manage a construction company out of their checkbook end up out of business fast. (Watching the bank account misses the bills outstanding, bills in the mail, in-progress construction, and outstanding receivables.) A long standing rule of thumb is that 1/2 of all construction companies fail in their first year. 1/2 of what's left fail the following year.

 

[Zeke]

While this is all good or even excellent advice, if you take a cross section of the contractors "in business" today, you might conclude that you could be well above average without a whole lot of background.

Don't get me wrong, a fool and his money are soon parted. However, and as mentioned on many other threads concerning contractors, if you are prompt and honest, you will work.

I do all my work at this time by time and materials. I have dozens of examples of situations where I saved the customer money working this way. But, ultimately to convince them, I tell them at hourly they have the right to send me home at any time.

If they sign a contract with me, they no longer have that right.

Any estimator will add for contingencies. At T & M there is no adder. It's essentially the wholesale rate. Believe me, customers respond to the word wholesale.

Don't get in over your head, take small jobs. And the advice about keeping your wife employed elsewhere at least until you have a year or so of profitable business is good advice. Especially if she has health insurance benefits and you can be on her policy.

That right there can save you up to $1000/mo. Or more.

 

[camarotoolman]

Charlottes tough, i got a buddy that ran big jobs there for years, hes got his tool belt back on just to pay his bills.

 

[cabriolet]

xscorex- I have 33 years experience, 16 as a pipefitter doing industrial construction, and 17 years owning a steel fabrication business doing commercial projects. In an earlier post you mentioned wanting to do commercial work as a sub contractor. Commercial work is very different than residential.What trade do you want to go into?
I'm not sure what the laws are where you are at but here in SLC Ut, a sub on a commercial job, regardless of size, only gets to bill once a month, usually around the 20th of the month, and "forecast" what they will have complete by the end of the month and add it to the bill. Payment for that bill is usually in 30 to 45 days after that. Also your company will need to be able to pay for all labor and materials during that time period. All of this can add up very quickly, even with a small crew. If you are going into commercial construction you are going to need to operating capital.
All of this is based on my experiences in commercial construction jobs in Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Arizona and California, your area may be different. I would look into the pay aspect of the jobs you plan to go after..

 

[RivennHewn]

If it was easy, girls would do it.

Best O Luck to ya

 

[plumbstupid]

I would not advise anyone to try to break into construction right now. I don't know the economic state in North Carolina, here construction is pretty tough. I'm a plumbing contractor.

If I was going to try to be a GC right now, I would go a diffrent route. You might want to look into disaster repair. Flood and fire cleanup. It gives you options. Alot of the work is drying carpet. You will need some industrial blowers, dehumidifiers and a van or trailer. Alot of the floods are severe enough that the carpet has to be replaced, cabinets have to be removed/replaced. Some instances require the drywall to be removed/replaced and new paint. Fire damage requires all aspects of home construction.

Alot of these jobs turn into remodels. There is good money in it and it would allow you to grow. You can always branch out and clean carpets or use your subs to build or do remodels.

 

[xscorex]

Thanks for the advice guys. Unfortunately business is tough everywhere. My wife would be able to keep her job while helping with our business. Our plan was to start off very small, She has lots of contacts in the industry and our hope was to get one or two of them and start off as labor only subcontractors then go from there. We have several people who have promised us jobs if we get our insurance. Right now my income is 0 so I really dont have anything to lose. I have the cash saved up for insurance and I have access to labor I just dont feel that comfortable yet with the actual work. Right now the people I have are experienced in commercial door and fixture installs. stuff like hand dryers, soap dispensers and randomness like that. We will probably get some trim work business as well. Basically one of her good friends who was laid off encouraged us to do this. He was in my position with no job and got a crew together and insurance and started doing roofing and demo now he does a little of everything. I think instead of springing for insurance I might work on a few of his projects to get a feel of it. I was on a labor only job for a few weeks, basically doing lots of random stuff like moving and installing fans in a warehouse and misc stuff. I never once saw the man who I was working for. I figure if we can do some small jobs and get our name out there then we can get some more financing and do some bigger jobs that we will have to front the materials and such. Right now we are starting as a 2 to 3 man crew basically knowing we cant get paid until invoices are paid. I'm ok with this and the crew is ok, but who knows for how long they will be. This is def going to be a shoestring budget type deal.

 

[darkk]

You could always hire an experienced contractor...

 

[Red05GT]

While desire and work ethic are admirable, I can't imagine starting out with no real life experience superivising a crew that you can't afford to pay until after you get paid. That's
a real thin shoestring! I went into business 28 years ago after serving a union carpenters
apprenticeship and having been around construction my whole life. My Grandfather, Dad
and Uncle were all carpenters and builders/contractors and it was still an unbelieveably
hard road. How do you manage quality of the work when you don't know whether the
crew is truly qualified themselves?

 

[Foxxtrot]

I am in the construction industry in Charlotte doing insurance restoration. I have been in construction for almost 20 years, and I have done subcontract work, contract work, and worked for other people. I can tell you, work in Charlotte is rough right now. There are a lot of guys that have been doing this a long time, who can't find enough work to feed their families. You definitely should have at least some experience in the industry. I haven't seen anything particular, are you talking about general construction/remodeling or a particular trade? If general, there are so many parts to that, if you have no experience, this could be a real good way to wipe out whatever savings you still have.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but damn, you are really putting it out on the line! I would highly recommend putting in some time in at least part of the industry you are interested in working in. If you are planning on doing larger projects with multiple trades, you need to find a company that has a staff that does all those things and get on with them to try out several different things, or at least learn the basics to what needs to be done. If one trade in particular interests you, or it looks like you could primarily get work in one trade, find someone to work with for a short time to get a feel for that. Either way, it is extremely hard to get started in a business you don't have a lot of experience in. Good luck!

 

[texmln]

The only class that will do you some good in your situation is Spanish 101...

 

[wssix99]

The only class that will do you some good in your situation is Spanish 101...

Or get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087629817X/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[xscorex]

thanks for the info guys. I think Ive decided to hold off on the insurance , I have a job working for a small contractor, we have enough work for a year, He is cool with showing me the ropes and helping me out so I think this will be a great way to get my foot in the door and learn about everything.

 

[jdaallen]

The only class that will do you some good in your situation is Spanish 101...

If your going to be working in pre 1978 Child Occupied Facilities (i.e all housing) you will have to have the EPA;s Lead RRP class also. It is manditory for all contractors.

 

[Thruxton]

Hell, most construction company owners don't know everything about the trade they are in. Good business skills are a lot harder to come by than trade skills. Get a good lead man and if he is loyal promote him to manger. Let the manger and his crews take care of the field work and you take care of business.

Good estimating is also essential, so spend your time learning prices and costs so you can make money. Ask your lead man if he thinks you are on the money. Don't try to hide the books from the employees, let them be part of the business. You draw a modest salary in keeping with what others make. If you have excessive profits (not likely, but it does happen) pass out bonuses and invest for yourself.

Buying your office building is one of the best investments. Your books will show that as overhead AFA the employees are concerned. But in the end you have real estate to show for your "expenses." Don't drive a friggen' Mercedes to the office. Drive a modest car or truck. Your employees and customers will not be suspicious of that ethos.

You can't hold the nail while your carpenter hits it, so let the workers work. Hire the best you can afford and get rid of the slackers when you can. Be reasonable with your people and your customers and hope they will do much the same with you. There will be some bumps in the road.

I've retired after a career in sales and sales management, owning a couple of businesses, and teaching management in an undergrad B-school, and what you read above is worth a full semester's credit. IMHO. If I were teaching now this might be a handout on the first day of class.