Question for HVAC guys about A/C tune ups

[Todd.Brock]

I have a 30 yo Trane that was about 1 lb low on R-22 last year. Local guy getting his name out , etc. charged $79 bucks for"tune up" and about 95 bucks for 1 lb of freon.

Last week , he did my parents A/C that is about 10 years old and charged $89 bucks a pound for 410. And put in 2 pounds. Mom had no cooling issues. Was just the spring check up. The company called me to schedule and said R-22 is now $150 /lb. I asked about 410 and the tech on the phone said it's way cheaper, like $30 to $40 an lb. then he said uh wait... our new pricing is $89...

Did Freon take a serious jump ?? Or is it just this guy? I know the dude can't be making any money on a service call at 79 bucks, is he just making it back in freon?

I don't want this to spiral downward, I was just curious on yOur opionions on the rate hike. Im not hating on the dude for trying to make a living. It's probably a wash compared to other companies that are charging a higher Service call and less on freon.

I'm lucky this damn thing is still trucking along!!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I know r22 went though the roof,410a hasn't changed that im aware of anyway.

 

[brewchief]

410a more then doubled in the last week, issues with the plants in China that make the components of all the 4XX series of refrigerants. One report I saw has said that China will only have enough product to cover there domestic use and won't have any for export, they make the majority of the product so expect shortages and high prices.

We bought 30 25 pounders of 410a this week, quoted 85$ last week, bought 20 at 165$ and then made a deal for 10 more at 140$.

Some places around here are over 210$ as of today.

FWIW a lot of the cost of refrigerant when added on a service call is labor and overhead.

 

[mrpizza]

410 went crazy high as mentioned. I was at a DSO training today, some of the major manufacturers are already preparing for 410 to be obsolete.

 

[Todd.Brock]

Good to know on 410.
It just seemed off that the price doubled per pound last year for 410 and went up 50 % on r 22.

So if a 410 jug goes from 85 to 140 that's a $1.83 per pound difference. Does that mean it should go from $30 or $40 per pound to $89 a pound?

At 40 bucks an lb, that is 1200 bucks per 30lbs. Now at the higher rate of 89, it's 2600 bucks per jug.

Am I missing something? Again, I know the freon charge is Paying for over head, but does the $ 1.83 increase justify doubling the rate that has already been factored to pay for over head, etc?? Now this is using the negotiated rate that BrewChief mentioned. At 210 a jug, its 4.16 per pound variance.

I could be wrong. If it's just a matter of we charge that much b/c we want to , that's cool. I get it. I was just curious.

 

[Gila Monster]

It's the screwey way HVAC techs charge for their services.
They are just charging you a higher labor rate but saying it is for the refrigerant.


R-410 is like $8 a pound.

Many have found consumers will pay what they ask once they started charging like $100 a pound for R-22. So now they try it with R-410.


If a car repair shop say drained and filled your radiator and wanted $100 for a gallon of coolant plus their usual labor rate, you would be outraged. Antifreeze is only about $10 a gallon.


It's a free country, and techs can charge whatever they want I know they have to eat, but I think everyone would appreciate a more honest breakdown.

 

[188slo50]

Just had the ad guy out yesterday and r22 was $110 a pound, had 3 other shops quote the same price. Worst part is my ac still doesn't work and guy is coming again tomorrow, I think I see where this may be heading.

 

[theoldwizard1]

R22 must be phased out by 2020 or 2022. I am not sure if is even being manufactured any more.

If R410 is going away, what is going to replace it ?

Propane makes an excellent refrigerant, just not the safest !

 

[eddieK]

I have a 30 yo Trane that was about 1 lb low on R-22 last year. Local guy getting his name out , etc. charged $79 bucks for"tune up" and about 95 bucks for 1 lb of freon.

Last week , he did my parents A/C that is about 10 years old and charged $89 bucks a pound for 410. And put in 2 pounds. Mom had no cooling issues. Was just the spring check up. The company called me to schedule and said R-22 is now $150 /lb. I asked about 410 and the tech on the phone said it's way cheaper, like $30 to $40 an lb. then he said uh wait... our new pricing is $89...

Did Freon take a serious jump ?? Or is it just this guy? I know the dude can't be making any money on a service call at 79 bucks, is he just making it back in freon?

I don't want this to spiral downward, I was just curious on yOur opionions on the rate hike. Im not hating on the dude for trying to make a living. It's probably a wash compared to other companies that are charging a higher Service call and less on freon.

I'm lucky this damn thing is still trucking along!!

The truth is refrigerant prices are not dependable when we go to get the next jug or two...(10 whatever). Most companies here (San Diego) charge $100.00 for R22 and/or the 'drop ins' and between 80 and 90 for R410a...

The reason is we don't know when the next spike will be and this should cover it...so customers don't get upset the next time you have to add...

With that said, I always recommend you spend the money to locate the leak and not have charges for it every year...and it is much better for the whole system to NOT get low on charge.

 

[eddieK]

Good to know on 410.
It just seemed off that the price doubled per pound last year for 410 and went up 50 % on r 22.

So if a 410 jug goes from 85 to 140 that's a $1.83 per pound difference. Does that mean it should go from $30 or $40 per pound to $89 a pound?

At 40 bucks an lb, that is 1200 bucks per 30lbs. Now at the higher rate of 89, it's 2600 bucks per jug.

Am I missing something? Again, I know the freon charge is Paying for over head, but does the $ 1.83 increase justify doubling the rate that has already been factored to pay for over head, etc?? Now this is using the negotiated rate that BrewChief mentioned. At 210 a jug, its 4.16 per pound variance.

I could be wrong. If it's just a matter of we charge that much b/c we want to , that's cool. I get it. I was just curious.

Blame global warming fears on this...not the guy that is in the direct line of the customer. He's just selling something that our gov keeps dipping their fingers into.

The first really big spike more increased the cost by over 500%...and then dropped 200% by the end of the year...this was immediately following the Kyoto Protocol if I recall correctly. Another after Paris Climate Change Conference 2015...

 

[Todd.Brock]

I appreciate the honest outlook. My guy must be using the apocalypse multiplier for r-22 rates. My system is so old, that I doubt it's worth working on. Last summer I asked the question if I should replace even though it s still running Idea is was that I am [emoji383]out the nose to run it. Consensus was a new system you pay all year for, this dinosaur only costs money May - Sept.
It's on borrowed time x2 it sounds like, but I'm just trying to eek all I can before replacing.

 

[eddieK]

R22 must be phased out by 2020 or 2022. I am not sure if is even being manufactured any more.

If R410 is going away, what is going to replace it ?

Propane makes an excellent refrigerant, just not the safest !

Here's the idiocy...R410a was a refrigerant adopted after the industry ran out of time to invent a new refrigerant. The industry by MANDATE was required to INVENT a replacement and only given 6 yrs to do this. You cannot mandate invention.

I am not certain this is true, but a refrigerant supply company spokesman told me that R410a was invented by GE in the 70's and not adopted into application because it just did not perform as well as R12 - R22 - 402 - This all has to do with heat removal (latent heat) abilities.

Now...R22 was phased out because ...{drum roll please} it MAY...YES MAY cause harm to the earths atmosphere, that word MAY is the LEGAL term they used.

R410a, they did not know enough about to consider it a MAY or a IT DOES, in legal terms. Chances are pretty good they found out that the savior replacement DOES.

The rumblings around the trade are we can expect a replacement refrigerant for R410a in the next 5 to 10 yrs.

 

[eddieK]

It's the screwey way HVAC techs charge for their services.
They are just charging you a higher labor rate but saying it is for the refrigerant.


R-410 is like $8 a pound.

Many have found consumers will pay what they ask once they started charging like $100 a pound for R-22. So now they try it with R-410.


If a car repair shop say drained and filled your radiator and wanted $100 for a gallon of coolant plus their usual labor rate, you would be outraged. Antifreeze is only about $10 a gallon.


It's a free country, and techs can charge whatever they want I know they have to eat, but I think everyone would appreciate a more honest breakdown.

NOT TRUE.

I take serious offense at your comment...But I still like you as a person.

The honesty problem lies with our gov's hands in our stuff. Picture how you would react if you had to manage the uncertainty of next months costs to stock your trucks with something that HAS quadrupled in cost overnight at least a few times and doubled many more in the past ten years.

A jug of R410a 25Lbs...verses 30Lbs for R22. (tanks have to be heavier because of the higher pressure)

R410a when introduced was 85.00 a jug

R22 was slightly higher but you got 5 more Lbs

One January I think it was 2011- R22 leaped to $600.00 a jug, by the end of the year it dropped to 300.ish

Right now R22 is 900.00 a jug

Drop ins range between 250 - 300

R410a steadly rose to 250...and still is rising.

These are So Cal wholesale prices I am speaking of.

We don't sell wholesale, just like your grocer, we sell retail AND we deliver it to you AND we install it as well.

I always provide quotes not price breakdowns...because if I separate the parts and labor...the parts cost YOU another tax. I pay the current tax at the counter on the wholesale price, in the county where I do that I pay 8.75%...

When i sell parts I have to include another tax, depending on the county we are talking about, that could be 8 - 9.5% on The RETAIL price I sell the part I delivered and INSTALLED...a part where tax was already collected at the point of sale.

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

Today, wholesale price of R410a is 268.00 for 25#. R22 is $720.00 for 30#. These are actual numbers from an actual guy in the business that has access to pricing. This is Indiana, and it varies wildly, but more on that later.

R-22 a few months ago, here, was over $1000 some places for a tank. A year ago, R410a sold for $60 a tank. Phaseouts are real. The impact is HUGE. No one knows where we are going next, many manufacturers are actually producing proprietary blends for some markets. Its a real **** shoot just as it was during the initial phaseouts. Only this time, there are less good options. It is tough to say what will happen. Virtually every refrigerant used today has or will have a phase out date that most of us will live to see. So called "drop- ins" may fill the short term bill, but are not a long term solution for all types of reasons.

As for the pricing- your results may vary. I can call 10 supply houses and get 10 different numbers. They will swing (just in our city) by hundreds of dollars per tanks sometimes.

I agree with EddieK as well, you don't buy wholesale. You are buying a service, and to be honest, contractors do themselves a disservice by breaking out pricing sometimes.

I was given a project just the other day. To on-board a technician where I work is just under $75k. Just to get them outfit! This does not account for training time, or riding with another tech the first few days, that is just cash out the door. And that is just to hire a guy.

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

It's the screwey way HVAC techs charge for their services.
They are just charging you a higher labor rate but saying it is for the refrigerant.


R-410 is like $8 a pound.

Many have found consumers will pay what they ask once they started charging like $100 a pound for R-22. So now they try it with R-410.


If a car repair shop say drained and filled your radiator and wanted $100 for a gallon of coolant plus their usual labor rate, you would be outraged. Antifreeze is only about $10 a gallon.


It's a free country, and techs can charge whatever they want I know they have to eat, but I think everyone would appreciate a more honest breakdown.

It seems you have little clue how this works. The tech does not set the price. The employer does. There are tons of costs you don't see. Trucks, tools, building, inventory, office staff, on and on.

HVAC is one of the highest skilled trades. Plumbing, electrical, rigging, and more are involved. Sadly, a technician shortage is upon us- nationwide, so good techs command excellent money, and excellent techs, well, make over 6 figures in the Midwest. Many companies depend on parts mark up to help keep the hourly rate down. Its a fact of life. It costs us around $85 an hour to have a technician. That is our cost as an employer. Obviously, this is not residential, but the comparison is the same. If we just sell labor, its low margin. Parts make up the difference. They drive revenue.

There are companies that are not real honest, that is true with any business. But most are reputable, and want to make money (that's the only reason to be in business) and satisfy customers (that's how you stay in business). Its a balancing act.

I never want to win a job based on price, that's not our deal. I want to win it because its good for us and good for the customer, and everyone is happy.

 

[Brian_WK]

I have a 30 yo Trane that was about 1 lb low on R-22 last year. Local guy getting his name out , etc. charged $79 bucks for"tune up" and about 95 bucks for 1 lb of freon.

Last week , he did my parents A/C that is about 10 years old and charged $89 bucks a pound for 410. And put in 2 pounds. Mom had no cooling issues. Was just the spring check up. The company called me to schedule and said R-22 is now $150 /lb. I asked about 410 and the tech on the phone said it's way cheaper, like $30 to $40 an lb. then he said uh wait... our new pricing is $89...

Did Freon take a serious jump ?? Or is it just this guy? I know the dude can't be making any money on a service call at 79 bucks, is he just making it back in freon?

I don't want this to spiral downward, I was just curious on yOur opionions on the rate hike. Im not hating on the dude for trying to make a living. It's probably a wash compared to other companies that are charging a higher Service call and less on freon.

I'm lucky this damn thing is still trucking along!!

Alot of truth in this thread above and the freon market is getting to be as volatile as the oil market. One plant closing or some speculation and the prices go insane then take forever to come back down if they ever do.

Brian

 

[mrpizza]

The company I work for is not always the lowest price, but we deliver an excellent value above and beyond the dollar amount of their service or new system. I sell A LOT of new equipment around here.

 

[Todd.Brock]

Good feed back! Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize the volatility of the market for freon. I don't expect to pay wholesale price, but when the price is doubled for this product or up 50% you question what's changed. I do anyway. Not to say I won't pay it, as the house needs to stay cool/warm, etc just trying to be informed.

 

[Trey T]

The wholesale price for 30lbs R22 is $729 at this moment from my local distributor. Two years ago, it was only $250.

25lbs R410a is $193 at this moment. Two years ago, it was only $90. Even R410a is expensive!!!!

There's something wrong w/ the market of freon or HVAC servicing.

 

[RTUmark]

R410A replacement has not been identified. All current, viable replacements are considered mildly flammable requiring significant changes to building codes and sensors both in units and buildings.

 

[79firebird]

R404 is the replacment for r 22. when i priced out r410a for my mini split my works cost Was $350 for a 20 pounder here in canada

 

[Brian_WK]

R404 is the replacment for r 22. when i priced out r410a for my mini split my works cost Was $350 for a 20 pounder here in canada

R404a is the replacement for R502 a low temp refrigerant used in freezers. R410 was the replacer for r-22. Neither of these are drop ins and both require extensive changes to the system. There is no end all replacement for r-22 yet.

Brian

 

[mrobins297aaa]

R22 must be phased out by 2020 or 2022. I am not sure if is even being manufactured any more.

If R410 is going away, what is going to replace it ?

Propane makes an excellent refrigerant, just not the safest !

if I recall Ammonia is a even better refrigerant, I think it's right near the top of moving BTU's per pound.......but it's also dangerous

 

[Gila Monster]

The techs chiming are basically proving my point that the extreme markup on refrigerant is to subsidize the "too low" labor cost.

This has nothing to do with the cost of refrigerant, if a customer provided their own sealed tank to a tech, I guarantee you they wouldn't give you the same labor rate to fill it.


Most customers would appreciate a company being honest and charging the ACTUAL labor rate and giving them a more realistic markup for the refrigerant. Instead, they give a super low "teaser" rate to get their foot in the door.




The OP feels like he got ripped off because of what they charged for refrigerant. He wouldn't have felt ripped off if say he got charged $120 an hour for labor and a small markup on the R-410 instead of 1,000%+


Somehow AC techs just a few years ago didn't make all their money selling refrigerant at an extreme markup.

If they came out with a new drop in replacement tomorrow that was $1 a pound, I guarantee you there would be techs still trying to charge $80 a pound.

 

[Firebrick43]

407C

R404a is the replacement for R502 a low temp refrigerant used in freezers. R410 was the replacer for r-22. Neither of these are drop ins and both require extensive changes to the system. There is no end all replacement for r-22 yet.

Brian

407C. Replace the dryer and flush the oil out. Charge with 407c and it will have very close performance of the R22

 

[Jim greengo]

I have a 30 yo Trane that was about 1 lb low on R-22 last year. Local guy getting his name out , etc. charged $79 bucks for"tune up" and about 95 bucks for 1 lb of freon.

Last week , he did my parents A/C that is about 10 years old and charged $89 bucks a pound for 410. And put in 2 pounds. Mom had no cooling issues. Was just the spring check up. The company called me to schedule and said R-22 is now $150 /lb. I asked about 410 and the tech on the phone said it's way cheaper, like $30 to $40 an lb. then he said uh wait... our new pricing is $89...

Did Freon take a serious jump ?? Or is it just this guy? I know the dude can't be making any money on a service call at 79 bucks, is he just making it back in freon?

I don't want this to spiral downward, I was just curious on yOur opionions on the rate hike. Im not hating on the dude for trying to make a living. It's probably a wash compared to other companies that are charging a higher Service call and less on freon.

I'm lucky this damn thing is still trucking along!!

I know my price has doubled at supply house on freon since last year.

 

[karoc]

Funny that there’s plenty when prices are high, reminds me of plywood

 

[Walkers]

The interesting thing I have found about A/C ‘tune ups’ is that there is always room for a pound of refrigerant, but there is never any reports of leaks. I could probably schedule 5 a/c guy to come by here this week for a tune up, and each of the 5 guys would put in ‘about a pound’ of refrigerant.

 

[Jim greengo]

The interesting thing I have found about A/C ‘tune ups’ is that there is always room for a pound of refrigerant, but there is never any reports of leaks. I could probably schedule 5 a/c guy to come by here this week for a tune up, and each of the 5 guys would put in ‘about a pound’ of refrigerant.

You're calling the wrong guys.

 

[Walkers]

You're calling the wrong guys.

No, I think it has turned into a hidden, minimum charge sort of thing. I used to do my own A/C work until this latest unit with the dual compressors. I still keep my own supply of refrigerant on hand though. I have checked pressure on a friends unit, then they had an a/c guy do a tune up and added ‘a pound of refrigerant’ and the pressures remained the same, which tell me that a pound was not really added.

 

[Jim greengo]

No, I think it has turned into a hidden, minimum charge sort of thing. I used to do my own A/C work until this latest unit with the dual compressors. I still keep my own supply of refrigerant on hand though. I have checked pressure on a friends unit, then they had an a/c guy do a tune up and added ‘a pound of refrigerant’ and the pressures remained the same, which tell me that a pound was not really added.

More than 1/2 of the ac's I service need nothing but rinsed out and a filter change.

 

[Walkers]

More than 1/2 of the ac's I service need nothing but rinsed out and a filter change.

That is exactly what I am implying.

 

[Jim greengo]

That is exactly what I am implying.

That's why I said you're calling the wrong guys.

 

[Walkers]

That's why I said you're calling the wrong guys.

If that is in fact true (and it is not for me, as indicated I manage my own, except this current unit that I have a friend manage for me), then here in the land of air conditioning, they are all liars (Or very nearly so). I have looked at my mothers, and in-laws work orders, neighbors, friends, etc. it is almost 100% of the time that they are ‘adding a pound‘ or refrigerant. Why that amount? Probably because it would be difficult to disprove.