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Question for NEC "Code Lawyers"

theoldwizard1

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In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a microwave ?

In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a refrigerator ?

I know kitchen counter top receptacles require GFCI protection, but what about other kitchen circuits ?
 
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rlitman

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In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a microwave ?

In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a refrigerator ?
Neither require separate circuits. But keep in mind that if there's a way for someone to run a coffee maker, toaster and microwave off the same circuit, someone will, and will trip the breaker at the most inopportune moment.

Same goes for the fridge, which really doesn't use all that much power, but you REALLY don't want it losing power unexpectedly. So, no code doesn't call for separate circuits for each, but it's certainly a good idea.

I also wouldn't share the microwave and gas range. That made sense years ago when only the clock, ignitors and oven lights drew any power. Today when you have a 1000W convection element in gas ovens, and your wife's turkey doesn't get done because someone was reheating something in the microwave, you'll think twice about how much power you want to bring to your kitchen.
 

dcg9381

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You don't want a refrigerator on a branch circuit. Terrible idea. What happens if you trip it and don't realize?

I think it's 210.52(B)(2):
  • The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets
With these exceptions:
1730149220991.png
 

sparky 1971

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In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a microwave ?
No, but if it's not sitting on the countertop or in the dining room or pantry, it can't be on one of the two small appliance countertop circuits. So, if it's a built in or over the range, it's easier to give it it's own circuit, that's what I do, but I do drop down out of it for the 120 volt gas range receptacle.
In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a refrigerator ?
Nope. It can be on one of the small appliance countertop circuits. It can also be on a 15 amp circuit.
I know kitchen counter top receptacles require GFCI protection, but what about other kitchen circuits ?
Any receptacle within 6' of a sink is to be GFCI protected, that includes the garbage disposal and dishwasher. It's kind of stupid, but the edge of a fridge could be 4' away from the sink and the receptacle for it could be 6'1' away and not require a GFCI. I don't have a 2023 code book yet so I can't verify, but I think it is going to require everything in the kitchen to be GFCI protected regardless of distance.
 

njride

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Built in microwave, ie above the stove requires a dedicated 20. Countertop microwave can be on countrrtop circuits. Fridge can either be on one of the 2 countertop circuits or on a dedicated 15 amp circuit, if on the countertop circuits it should be the homerun before the first gfci.
 

sparky 1971

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You don't want a refrigerator on a branch circuit. Terrible idea. What happens if you trip it and don't realize?

I think it's 210.52(B)(2):
  • The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets
With these exceptions:
1730149220991.png
I say refrigerators can indeed be on one of the small appliance branch circuits. 210.52(B)1 agrees with me.
 

rlitman

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I say refrigerators can indeed be on one of the small appliance branch circuits. 210.52(B)1 agrees with me.
It's allowed, but if you trip a GFCI or breaker, you may to regret it. This is the sort of thing that GFCI outlets with audible alarms are made for. ;)
 

njride

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It's allowed, but if you trip a GFCI or breaker, you may to regret it. This is the sort of thing that GFCI outlets with audible alarms are made for. ;)
It can be on one of the sabc circuits, you don't gfci protect the fridge receptacle, same as you wouldnt with a gas stove on the sabc circuit, you hit em first and then on to your first gfci receptacle. Fridge on one sabc, gas stove on the other is legal and plenty adequate, most older homes would dream of having to twenties for the countertop. I do like to put the fridge on a dedicated 15 when it's up to me.
 
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Chuckster in NJ

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READ the manufacturer installation manual…….. EG: A Sub Zero unit requires a dedicated circuit.
ALL appliances must be installed as per manufacturer installation instructions so "IF" the appliance requires a dedicated circuit it needs dedicated circuit……. Otherwise it can be on one of the two kitchen circuits.

BTW! I am not a "Code Lawyer"………. I am a "Code Nazi" ;)
 
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theoldwizard1

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Built in microwave, ie above the stove requires a dedicated 20.
Please list reference to NEC.
Fridge can either be on one of the 2 countertop circuits ...
I would NEVER plug a refrigerator or freezer into any type of GFCI circuit, despite the fact that GFCI are required on any location with a concrete slab on grade !
 

njride

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Please list reference to NEC.

I would NEVER plug a refrigerator or freezer into any type of GFCI circuit, despite the fact that GFCI are required on any location with a concrete slab on grade !
You don't gfci protect it, hit it with the home run and then move onto the first gfci countrrtop it's not hard
 

njride

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Never said it was "hard". I want to know if NEC requires it !
Requires what exactly?
If you gut your kitchen to studs, and are having it inspected you need to go to whatever code cycle the AHJ is on.
Fridge can be on one of the sabc, microwave if it's screwed to a wall or otherwise what you may imagine as permanently installed requires a 20. If it's a little fella that sits on the counter than you don't need a circuit for it, just plug it into one of the sabc receps.
 

sparky 1971

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It's allowed, but if you trip a GFCI or breaker, you may to regret it. This is the sort of thing that GFCI outlets with audible alarms are made for. ;).
But if the refrigerator receptacle is within 6' of the sink, it's supposed to be GFCI protected anyway. If it is more than 6' from the sink I will start the circuit there and install the GFCI at the next receptacle. If it's within 6' of the sink I will usually put it on another circuit with the dining room and use a GFCI breaker. That way, if for some reason that I may or may not have anything to do with, the GFCI were to get removed, the rest of the countertop outlets won't be effected and will still have the protection.
 
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sparky 1971

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It can be on one of the sabc circuits, you don't gfci protect the fridge receptacle, same as you wouldnt with a gas stove on the sabc circuit, you hit em first and then on to your first gfci receptacle. Fridge on one sabc, gas stove on the other is legal and plenty adequate, most older homes would dream of having to twenties for the countertop. I do like to put the fridge on a dedicated 15 when it's up to me.
If the receptacles are within 6' of the sink they are supposed to be GFCI protected. It doesn't matter if they are part of one of the SABC's or not. 210.8(A)7
 
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sparky 1971

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I thought the "counter top" circuits had to be "dedicated" which, to me, implies no other receptacles before the first GFCI receptacle.
The countertop receptacles are to be part of the at least two small appliance branch circuits. Those can include dining, pantry, and refrigerator receptacles as well as the countertop. You can look it up, the reference is 210.52(B) Everything serving the countertop has to be GFCI protected as well as anything else within 6' of the sink.
 
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mm08822

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I thought the "counter top" circuits had to be "dedicated" which, to me, implies no other receptacles before the first GFCI receptacle.
Dedicated SABCs have nothing to do with where the gfci recpt is located. Dedicated means used exclusively for whatever the intended purpose defined is.
 

mm08822

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The countertop receptacles are to be part of the at least two small appliance branch circuits. Those can include dining, pantry, and refrigerator receptacles. You can look it up. The code reference is 210.52(B) Everything serving the countertop has to be GFCI protected as well as anything else within 6' of the sink.
Even fridges if its recept is within 6ft of sink!
 

mm08822

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In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a microwave ?

In residential kitchens, is a separate circuit required for a refrigerator ?

I know kitchen counter top receptacles require GFCI protection, but what about other kitchen circuits ?
The fixed in-place microwave can be on a general purpose circuit if it is not greater than 50% load of the circuit. The cycling of it in use would be annoying. It can not be on one of the SABCs.

A fridge can have its own circuit or be on the SABC. If fridge recept is within 6' of sink, it has to be gfci protected.
 

sparky 1971

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Please list reference to NEC.

I would NEVER plug a refrigerator or freezer into any type of GFCI circuit, despite the fact that GFCI are required on any location with a concrete slab on grade !
Nowhere in the NEC does it say that something on or above grade requires GFCI protection whether it has a concrete slab or not. I can't post a code reference because it doesn't exist. The closest I can come is 210.8(A)5 saying that basement receptacles require GFCI protection, but there is an exception for alarms.
 

AA/FC

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I recommend adding as many circuits as you can to the kitchen. Even if the code doesn't require it, you can still add more...

I just added 2, 20amp each (40 amps total) receptacles to my kitchen about 6 months ago. Man is that nice having enough power to run whatever I want.

My old house had 2, 15 amp kitchen receptacles, one for the refrigerator, and one on the backsplash near the sink for a toaster or coffee maker.

These days with toaster ovens, crock pots, electric griddles, electric roasters, microwaves, pizza ovens, pressure cookers, air fryers, etc, etc... I was never able to run more than one piece of equipment at a time. Now that I have added 2 more 20 amp circuits, I go out of my way to run as much stuff as I can, simultaneously. It may be normal for you guys who live in a modern house, but this is a big deal for me. lolol :)
 
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theoldwizard1

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Nowhere in the NEC does it say that something on or above grade requires GFCI protection whether it has a concrete slab or not. I can't post a code reference because it doesn't exist. The closest I can come is 210.8(A)5 saying that basement receptacles require GFCI protection, but there is an exception for alarms.
I always took that to believe it applied to "slab on grade".

Somewhere in the NEC it says all garage (slab on grade) receptacles need to be GFCI protected.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Anyone else feel like this thread is just trolling?
Not trolling ! I want any honest answer, NOT OPINIONS/BEST PRACTICE !

Context : A few years back, I did a kitchen remodel on my daughter's house, which was built in the late 1940s. Most of the house had no ground wire ! Luckily, someone had upgraded the load center to breakers in the 1980s, but it was full.

I did not want to install a new, larger load center, so I put in 4 tandem breakers (the max allowed for that load center). Even with 4 additional circuits, if I had to have a separate circuit for both the microwave/hood vent and the refrigerator I was going to be short !

The refrigerator wound up being shared off of a circuit covering the dining room and the microwave was shared off of a bathroom circuit (not GFCI protected). Never had a problem, but I got a ration of **** from all of the arm chair sparkies !
 
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theoldwizard1

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These days with toaster ovens, crock pots, electric griddles, electric roasters, microwaves, pizza ovens, pressure cookers, air fryers, etc, etc... I was never able to run more than one piece of equipment at a time.
My house was built in the 1950s. I am not certain the 2 outlets on either side of the sink are "dedicated" (I am pretty certain one is shared with the garbage disposer and the dishwasher). NEVER HAD A PROBLEM RUNNING COUNTER TOP APPLIANCES ! Admittedly, when we break out the convection oven, it goes in the laundry room, but that is just because there is never any counter space for it in the kitchen.
 

PCustoms

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Asking about code and bringing up a kitchen built in the 50's is kind of irrelevant. A lot has changed in 70yrs.
 

Chuckster in NJ

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My house was built in the 1950s. I am not certain the 2 outlets on either side of the sink are "dedicated" (I am pretty certain one is shared with the garbage disposer and the dishwasher). NEVER HAD A PROBLEM RUNNING COUNTER TOP APPLIANCES ! Admittedly, when we break out the convection oven, it goes in the laundry room, but that is just because there is never any counter space for it in the kitchen.
This is simple! It's your house so do what you want…….. Personally I don’t give a F@K. ;)

BTW! There is another forum that I post on and this guy would argue with everyone about electrical issues and the crazy code requirements so I stopped "feeding the troll" and went away. This past summer the guy had a fire in his attic (major damage) and it was caused by his faulty wiring practices…….. Now he is living in a donated camper and he is still arguing about hooking up electric to the camper so he can have heat.

CAN'T FIX STOOPID! :lol_hitti
 

mm08822

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Not trolling ! I want any honest answer, NOT OPINIONS/BEST PRACTICE !

Context : A few years back, I did a kitchen remodel on my daughter's house, which was built in the late 1940s. Most of the house had no ground wire ! Luckily, someone had upgraded the load center to breakers in the 1980s, but it was full.

I did not want to install a new, larger load center, so I put in 4 tandem breakers (the max allowed for that load center). Even with 4 additional circuits, if I had to have a separate circuit for both the microwave/hood vent and the refrigerator I was going to be short !

The refrigerator wound up being shared off of a circuit covering the dining room and the microwave was shared off of a bathroom circuit (not GFCI protected). Never had a problem, but I got a ration of **** from all of the arm chair sparkies !
Sub panel?
 

sparky 1971

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I always took that to believe it applied to "slab on grade".

Somewhere in the NEC it says all garage (slab on grade) receptacles need to be GFCI protected.
Correct. All garage receptacles are to be GFCI protected. It has nothing to do with the slab and everything to do with it being a garage. The same with basements. A house on a slab doesn't require GFCI protection anywhere that a house with a basement doesn't.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Everything serving the countertop has to be GFCI protected as well as anything else within 6' of the sink.
So if the refrigerator is within 6' of the sink, but the receptacle is at "floor" level (and probably behind the refrigerator so it is NOT readily accessible) it does NOT have to be protected, correct ? Can it be on the same circuit as on of the SABC, just upstream of the GFCI receptacle ? (This implies the SABC is NOT "dedicate" to just counter top appliances.)
 
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