Question for the good welders

[mark-NJ]

Need some advice...and your thoughts on 6013:

I'm a good (not great) garage welder (stick & TIG). Youtube has been my main teacher, along with a couple of the fabricators I work with.

I've struggled with re-starts on 7018, so the advice my coworkers gave me was to stick with 6013. Lately, however, my joints look not-so-good...like I've forgotten everything I've learned. Chipping off slag (it never peels for me like in the videos) reveals a bad joint with lots of deep slag inclusion. Not good. I can run a decent bead on a coupon, but actually joining two pieces of metal? Yuck. Lap joint, corner, Tee...matters not: my 6013 joints are not good.

I'm working on a project (building another small welding cart), and I was getting very frustrated at the low quality of my 6013 joints. "If this is as good as I can weld, I don't need a welding cart...I need to sell my welder and take up stamp collecting!" I've *always* said that it's a poor workman who blames his tools, so I've tried everything to fix my technique. Clearly the problem is me.

Something in my head said "change rods", so I pulled out some 7014 & 7018, and WOW!! My welds look like I'm a 20 year pro! Stacked dimes with stick. Good penetration, easy slag removal. I switched back to 6013 just to see what's what, and my welds were awful. Consistently terrible. Back to 7018...perfect. Same with 7014 (that I bought on a whim)...slightly harder to remove the slag, but the joint underneath is perfect.

So what's the deal? Is there something about 6013 that is unforgiving to the average backyard welder? Any idea what I'm doing wrong? I'm ready to set it all aside & stick with different rods.

Interested in your thoughts,

 

[J-BELL]

I suspect there is something wrong with your rods, not you. I weld a lot with 6013 and have good results. The brand of rods can make a difference. Also if the rods are old and especially if they have been stored in a damp environment. Buy some new good quality 6013 and I bet you will be surprised.

 

[welder4956]

Arc length is too long. 6013 is not tolerant of long arc length and will leave a line of slag right down the middle if you don't hold a close arc. A lot of newbe's have trouble seeing the puddle and the tendency is to pull the arc back to see better. More of an involuntary reaction. Try holding the arc shorter and see if it helps.

 

[Terra Nova]

What type of welder are you using? Could that be the issue with you're having with restarts on 7018? 7018 can burn back up into the flux and you can't get it restarted because you're just banging flux against the part, not the electrode. Something to think about.

i'll second the comment about your existing rods and their condition. I would start with a fresh batch (or dry them in an oven). I also wouldn't give up on 7018, just keep at it until you get the restart figured out. Sometimes a raking or scratching motion with the rod helps when all else fails.

 

[American Locomotive]

I have a lot of trouble with 6013 rods in anything but horizontal on two perfectly prepped pieces of metal. Horizontal I can put down a nice bead, but vertical up, down, overhead, always look absolutely atrocious for me with 6013. On the other hand, I can run 6011 in just about every position and have beautiful looking welds every time. Not sure if its the rods, or me. Probably me, but it's easier to blame the rods.

I also think sometimes you can just get bad rods. I can fight with a single rod for minutes trying to get it to strike and it'll just seem to run crappy when it does. I'll toss it, grab another one from a different pack and it will light off instantly without a problem. Maybe moisture?

I'm using a Lincoln SquareWave 200 to run rods on DC. I have had issues getting rods to restrike on an AC machine though.

 

[Firebrick43]

I see Tig and 7018, why are you running any ac rod? Also what brand of rods are you using. I have seen a large difference in 7018 hobart rods from TSC and the Hobart from the local welding shop. They are not the same packaging or rod and the ones from the weld shop are much better. And 7018 AC is even worse compared to 7018 DC. 6010 for deep pen and cap with 7018 if you have DC.

You can litterally place 7014 in a stinger down on a plate and it will weld itself (might worm at the start) which is why its called idiot rod, as any idiot can weld nice with it, just not great pen.

 

[rlitman]

I see 6013 as a rod searching for an application that just doesn't exist. People resort to it when they have a stick welder but really need FCAW for sheet metal.

7018 is wonderful and structural rated, but requires being kept dry (and hot, once opened). For the super rare times I need a 70xx stick rod, I'll just use 7014, since it's quite similar but is more tolerant to moisture exposure in storage. However, while 7014 really excels flat, it gets runny in vertical and drippy in overhead.

6011 is my go-to for overhead and vertical for that reason. It's got NO slag, and freezes FAST. I should probably be using 6010 since I'm using DC anyway, but 6011 is almost the same thing.

 

[Wrench97]

I have a lot of trouble with 6013 rods in anything but horizontal on two perfectly prepped pieces of metal. Horizontal I can put down a nice bead, but vertical up, down, overhead, always look absolutely atrocious for me with 6013. On the other hand, I can run 6011 in just about every position and have beautiful looking welds every time. Not sure if its the rods, or me. Probably me, but it's easier to blame the rods.

I also think sometimes you can just get bad rods. I can fight with a single rod for minutes trying to get it to strike and it'll just seem to run crappy when it does. I'll toss it, grab another one from a different pack and it will light off instantly without a problem. Maybe moisture?

I'm using a Lincoln SquareWave 200 to run rods on DC. I have had issues getting rods to restrike on an AC machine though.

I prefer 6011 for the same reasons.

 

[Farrier]

I see Tig and 7018, why are you running any ac rod? Also what brand of rods are you using. I have seen a large difference in 7018 hobart rods from TSC and the Hobart from the local welding shop. They are not the same packaging or rod and the ones from the weld shop are much better. And 7018 AC is even worse compared to 7018 DC. 6010 for deep pen and cap with 7018 if you have DC.

You can litterally place 7014 in a stinger down on a plate and it will weld itself (might worm at the start) which is why its called idiot rod, as any idiot can weld nice with it, just not great pen.

I run AC with 7018 on magnetized metal, like oil field pipe.

 

[Firebrick43]

I run AC with 7018 on magnetized metal, like oil field pipe.

If you are using a AC/DC welder, and the metal is not magnetized, do you use ac rod?

Somehow I doubt that the OP is welding magnatize oil filed pipe. In 25 years of welding I have only ran across items that were heavily magnetized twice and ran them across the demag to solve. I could see how used oil field pipe could be magnetized.

 

[Farrier]

If you are using a AC/DC welder, and the metal is not magnetized, do you use ac rod?

Somehow I doubt that the OP is welding magnatize oil filed pipe. In 25 years of welding I have only ran across items that were heavily magnetized twice and ran them across the demag to solve. I could see how used oil field pipe could be magnetized.

No I run DC most of the time and but I always carry some AC7018 for special occasions.

 

[WelderWalt]

Need some advice...and your thoughts on 6013:

I'm a good (not great) garage welder (stick & TIG). Youtube has been my main teacher, along with a couple of the fabricators I work with.

I've struggled with re-starts on 7018, so the advice my coworkers gave me was to stick with 6013. Lately, however, my joints look not-so-good...like I've forgotten everything I've learned. Chipping off slag (it never peels for me like in the videos) reveals a bad joint with lots of deep slag inclusion. Not good. I can run a decent bead on a coupon, but actually joining two pieces of metal? Yuck. Lap joint, corner, Tee...matters not: my 6013 joints are not good.

I'm working on a project (building another small welding cart), and I was getting very frustrated at the low quality of my 6013 joints. "If this is as good as I can weld, I don't need a welding cart...I need to sell my welder and take up stamp collecting!" I've *always* said that it's a poor workman who blames his tools, so I've tried everything to fix my technique. Clearly the problem is me.

Something in my head said "change rods", so I pulled out some 7014 & 7018, and WOW!! My welds look like I'm a 20 year pro! Stacked dimes with stick. Good penetration, easy slag removal. I switched back to 6013 just to see what's what, and my welds were awful. Consistently terrible. Back to 7018...perfect. Same with 7014 (that I bought on a whim)...slightly harder to remove the slag, but the joint underneath is perfect.

So what's the deal? Is there something about 6013 that is unforgiving to the average backyard welder? Any idea what I'm doing wrong? I'm ready to set it all aside & stick with different rods.

Interested in your thoughts,

I agree with J-Bell, sounds like the rods got damp. I live in NJ just like you and rod storage in NJ's damp environment can be a challenge. It's not you, it's the rods, replace them and you'll be in good shape.

 

[mark-NJ]

Wow! Great comments....thank you all so much.

Looking back, I see that I didn't provide much info, so here's some data to chew on:

- First & foremost, nope...I'm not welding magnetized pipe!

- My first welder was purchased 3 years ago because I wanted to learn. It was a $100 eBay 140A no-name stick machine. It worked pretty well, and I learned a lot with it.
- Upgraded to an Everlast 161STH a year & a half ago. More features (and it does TIG, too...my purpose for buying it), but it was DC only. I know, green isn't red or blue, but for my needs, Everlast is perfect for now.
- Upgraded to an Everlast 185DV a few months back. It's an AC/DC machine; I bought it because I want to learn to TIG aluminum.

I've burned a lot of sticks with these 3 machines, some 1/8", but mostly 3/16". I've burned mostly 7018 & 6013 with some 6011 in the mix and (recently) some 7014. I've had decent success with 308L, too. Amp settings are appropriate for the rods & the metals being welded...steel anywhere from .090" up through 1/4", though not a lot above 1/8" thick. I've played with 1/16" 6013, too...but this isn't a rod I've found much purpose for, so I don't burn much of it.

My re-start issue with 7018 that I mentioned is solely because of that glassy non-conductive ball that forms on the tip. I can bang it to get it to restart, but not with the position & gap control that's needed to make a good joint. A buddy recently taught me to flick the ball off when I lift off the previous burn, and that works well...although I'm not wild about indiscriminately throwing re-hot balls around the garage. So while I like the burn of a new 7018 rod, I can't restart it with enough control to make a good joint. That's why I'm used to reaching for 6013, but as stated, lately my results with 6013 ****. Tons of slag inclusion.

Today I burned a bunch of rods just to see what's what. I burned everything on DCEP. Flat, on a coupon, I can lay a reasonably-decent 6013 bead, and the slag will peel as it cools. But even a simple 2F fillet results in a complete mess. Even with the arc length right down tight to the joint, results were inconsistent, with most just...awful. The same joint with any other rod results in as good a weld as I can do...clean, shiny, defined. Maybe not that which a certified pro could do, but a solid weld that isn't going to fail.

I will say that "seeing the puddle" can be a challenge; controlling it sometimes seems like riding a bucking bronco...but I suppose that's what sets a home-taught backyard welder apart from a pro. (Any pros here that live in C.NJ? I'll gladly trade dinner for a lesson)

The 6013 that's causing me issues is Lincoln Fleetweld 37-RS_P, "ED033501". Five-pound box that's about 6 months old. I bought it off the rack at my supplier's shop. I've read a lot about 7018 needing to stay dry because it's a low-hydrogen composition, but I've never heard that about 6013. I store it in the plastic box that it came in.

So that's my story... Does any of that shed any light?

 

[nadogail]

Try 7014, I have found it very tolerant. I don't have to worry about "Arc Length", I just drag it along the seam. It works on either AC or DC.

 

[mark-NJ]

Like I said, that's one of the rods I have no trouble with. I'm just wondering why I **** so bad with 6013. I haven't ruled out bad rods, but different rods burn differently, so I suspect it's my technique.

 

[Firebrick43]

I keep a heavy coupon of steel, 1/2" thick about 6x6" in diameter besides where I am working screwed to a piece of wood. I tap my 7018 rod on that to break the glassy slag on the tip before restarting.

All rod performs better if dried, some its significant, some not as much. 6013 is actually an AC rod but will run on dc. It will perform better on ac however. Really no need if you can weld 7018 dc. Get some 6010 for filling gaps and penetration of heavy steel root passes and 7018 of everything else.

 

[Spareparts]

Ask your supplier for some 80T, tried some and it almost welds by itself, when our supplier demonstrated it he set the amperage
put a small bow in the rod and sit it down on a piece of plate it started to weld, welded the length of the rod and the slag curled up
and came off. It also starts up easy.

 

[MJD1]

Just break off the end of the electrode with your gloved thumb. After a while it's second natu

 

[Farrier]

I keep all of my scrap steel and use that to practice on. I'm 45 and have been running beads since I was 16 yet I still practice to keep my skills sharp.

Grab some beers, jig up some scraps and practice, practice, practice. Horizontal, up hill, upside down et cetera.

Don't be afraid to change up your amp settings with different rods and materials. Crazy how things come together with a little bit of playing around.

Cheers!

 

[Lwel9226]

Just break off the end of the electrode with your gloved thumb. After a while it's second nature.

Like MJD says it becomes second nature....
For the 6013, try AC and turn the heat up a little.... Keep experimenting with the heat....

LynnW

 

[rockinacummins]

I don’t have a use for 6013 personally, and most of the decent welders I know say the same thing. I know some farmers who like them, they call them “drag rods” cuz they can just drag it down the seam and not have to manipulate the puddle to get a nice uniform weld. They never seem to penetrate well, but they do make a nice “pretty” bead.

My advice: spend a bunch of time with 6010 and 7018 rods.

 

[Farrier]

I don’t have a use for 6013 personally, and most of the decent welders I know say the same thing. I know some farmers who like them, they call them “drag rods” cuz they can just drag it down the seam and not have to manipulate the puddle to get a nice uniform weld. They never seem to penetrate well, but they do make a nice “pretty” bead.

My advice: spend a bunch of time with 6010 and 7018 rods.

I agree 110%

Once you find your groove, you'll run beads with your eyes closed

 

[nadogail]

An old Weldor told me that when you have the right rod and the right heat; you are half way there.

 

[egdede]

I was taught (by John Parks) to use my chipping hammer to just tap the hardened glass bead off the end of the 7018 before striking a bead.

 

[rustyjames]

When I first started welding with the 7018 I would drag the rod on concrete to knock the crust off the rod tip.

 

[Drahtdog]

Like the two posters above me, I remove the glass ball. I use a file.

For 6013 the esab surewelds that are blue cant be beat. They weld better with much less slag inclusions.

 

[GaryM909]

Just break off the end of the electrode with your gloved thumb. After a while it's second natu

That's usually how i find the first hole in my glove.

 

[Walkers]

On 7018 after you stop the arc just run your free hand down the stick and pinch the bulb off, no need to fling it anywhere. You can also tap the rod on the concrete, or keep a farriers rasp around to tap it on (just make sure it is not grounded). I am a welding contractor, and I don’t generally restart on 7018 unless it was only for tacking. A bad start is just not worth my time, and filler rods are not that expensive. I use 7018 almost exclusively, though I will use 6010 for pipe fences and the like. If you have a DC machine use a DC rod, only reason to use AC is on magnetized steel. I don’t ever use 6013, or any other rod that is not driven by the alloy I am welding (ie. 308, or 316L), there is just no real reason to.

Another option for clean restarts on 7018 is to put in a fresh rod every time, keep the used rods handy until you have a small handful, then hit the used end with a belt sander or angle grinder.

Also, Jody over on https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/ is a wealth of information.

 

[brownbagg]

6013 6011 6010 are tool box electrode, they are for farmers repairing dirty rusted equipment, they ride around all day in a wet muddy toolbox, they have a paper flux coating. no matter how good you are, they dont weld good

the best is a dc electrode, want have fun, play with a 6022 on a flat postion

 

[mark-NJ]

Also, Jody over on https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/ is a wealth of information.

He...and Bob Moffatt...are my go-to instructors. Wonderful information.

 

[LG63]

Is there something about 6013 that is unforgiving to the average backyard welder? Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

You’re a lot more advanced than this backyard welder and 6013 was one of the easiest rods to run when I just had an old Lincoln tombstone AC machine. I’d try a different batch of rods if you haven’t already done so and run them on AC

 

[dffay]

Switching polarity from 7018’s DC+ to 6013’s DC- has helped my issues with 6013.

 

[mmggdd]

More angle, short arc as in you can almost feel the rod scraping the work.

Also try little "e" instead of dragging.

 

[NikonRon]

If you're restarting 7018 just drag the tip on a file and it is much easier to fire it back up, no tapping at it.

 

[welder4956]

All of the discussion highlights the fact that welding rods are designed for specific applications and features, so it helps to choose one best suited for the work. One of the intended features for E6013 is shallow penetration, so it works well on sheetmetal. If you want deeper penetration, E6010 or E6011 is a better choice. E6010 is considered to be a "fast freeze" rod, so it is good for welding open root pipe welds or welding in vertical or overhead positions. It works well for a lot of home projects, but is a DC rod. E6011 is a better choice for AC welding.

 

[JackOfDiamonds]

Throw away the 6013 and never use it again.

Learn how to run 7018, and make sure you keep it dry.

 

[king nero]

Switching polarity from 7018’s DC+ to 6013’s DC- has helped my issues with 6013.

This. 6013 runs better on DC-. 7018 should only be used in straight polarity for a root pass, everything else DC+ (DCRP).

 

[BukitCase]

Jack, that's a matter of opinion; IME it depends on the weldER, the weldOR, and the purpose. The first weld was done with 25 year old 6013, kept in a cannister but NOT heated - machine was my Everlast Power iTig200T - 30% hot start, 20% dig, all 1/4" wall tube making some different height pylons to support and LEVEL 2 hi-cube containers for the next couple years - about half the other welds were done the same, some with sealed but at least a decade old 1/8" 7018 with same settings, The rest were done with the MM252, C25, .035" L56 wire.

The little Everlast NEVER stuck a rod with those settings. The only grinding was a couple of high spots, 'cause I capped ALL openings with 1/8" plate to keep the critters out. The stick welds got the needle scaler and a 6" wire wheel. Mig welds just got the wheel before priming.

I wasn't worried much about weld strength, 'cause everything there is under PRESSURE not tension... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Oh, where all that stuff went - the pylons had to be 6 different heights for the containers to come out level... Steve

 

[mark-NJ]

Throw away the 6013 and never use it again.

Learn how to run 7018, and make sure you keep it dry.

It's been a while since I posted in this thread so I figured I'd circle back with an update of sorts. This weekend I burned a LOT of stick. 7018...7014...6011...and, yes, some 6013. Both 3/32" and 1/8". I put beads on coupons, and did lap, **** & tee joints on a binch of clean 1/4" & 3/16" scrap plates. (Did some TIG, too...but that's another story).

Like I said, I burned a ton of rod and without exception, my 7018 work looked great. I ran the 1/8" rods at about 120A and the 3/32 rod between 85 - 100A. Clean welds, clean tie-in, slag was easily removed. And maybe it's just a "practice makes perfect" thing, but I seemed to have far less trouble with restarts than in the past. Put simply, this stuff was a joy to work with, and the results were great.

7014...I bought this stuff on a whim and I can't decide what I think about it. Sometimes it would lay out real nicely, other times, it was harder to work with. In all cases, the slag was a ***** to remove. I'm not sure what its purpose is...

6011...My welds looked OK, but this is such an aggressive rod, it really chews and doesn't make a nice looking joint. But this could be me, as my experience with cellulose rod is limited.

And then there was the 6013. No different than what I posted when I started this thread, most (not all) of the welds with 3/32" looked hideous, with a ton of slag inclusion. Tight arc didn't make any difference. Not once did the slag self-peel like on youtube videos. Since others suggested I could have gotten a bad batch, I burned a bunch of 1/8" to compare, but had very similar results. I ran both sizes on DCEP and DCEN (and had run DCEN in the past as well), but didn't perceive much of a difference. The results just sucked. It must be me...

I was talking to a mechanical contractor on a jobsite on Friday morning, and he (Like @JackOfDiamonds , above) told me to dump the 6013 and just get used to working with 7018 in various sizes. He said, for my needs, it's really all I'll ever need...and I'm already pretty good with it. That *may* be the answer. Still, it's odd to me that I'm so glaringly inconsistent with different rods.