Question on pigtails wiring a receptacle

[rharman]

I'm going to be adding a 20A receptacle in a new box off an existing GFCI in our master bath. Actually, the GFCI will get replaced as well - 30 years old and tamper-resistant is now required as well as I want to have the USB outlets. All the wiring is 12ga Romex.

There is already a load on the device so I think I'll need to pigtail it to add my new 12-2. I recall reading somewhere that stranded is preferred for pigtails. Is that true? I can see where it would be a lot easier to deal with when putting everything back in the box. If so, I'll need to buy a foot or so of stranded.

If I can/should use 12ga solid, is it acceptable to pull the individual wires out of a piece of Romex? Or, do I need to purchase separate THHN? In that case, stranded would be an easy option if preferred/allowed.

Also, opinions on Wago's or wire nuts? I have some doubts on Wago's - they remind me of back-stab connections.

Thanks!

The new GCFI is: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/gusb2-w

 

[Dlint]

You can pull the wires out of romex no problem. I personally go wire nuts unless space/ length requirements dictate wago. That said I'm not too concerned when using wagos, and not concerned at all if it's the lever type.

 

[mm08822]

Buy gfci recepts that take 2 wires under each terminal and the problem goes aways. Ground pigtail is needed still.
You won't need 20A rated recepts. 15A will do fine. (internally, 15's are rated for 20A pass-thru.)

W/o pigtails, you will be left with more room in box.

For me wirenuts only, except high hats. (Even then, some have fallen off the wires in the box.)

I always use scrap NM-B for internal jumpers.

 

[rharman]

Buy gfci recepts that take 2 wires under each terminal and the problem goes aways. Ground pigtail is needed still.
You won't need 20A rated recepts. 15A will do fine. (internally, 15's are rated for 20A pass-thru.)

W/o pigtails, you will be left with more room in box.

For me wirenuts only, except high hats. (Even then, some have fallen off the wires in the box.)

I always use scrap NM-B for internal jumpers.

I think this GFCI has built-in leads.

Thought I read recently that you had to use 20A receptacles on a 20A circuit? 20A circuit is required in the bathroom in my jurisdiction. Existing wiring is already 12ga and the breakers are all 20's.

This GFCI is for a vanity top outlet. It feeds another vanity top outlet on the opposite wall and a lighting circuit for a light fixture adjacent or in a wet location - shower and/or tub. The receptacle I'm adding will be below the vanity - Hole/Grommet in countertop to feed lighted mirror, electric toothbrush charger, or some other accessories.

 

[dave*99]

I think this GFCI has built-in leads.

Thought I read recently that you had to use 20A receptacles on a 20A circuit? 20A circuit is required in the bathroom in my jurisdiction. Existing wiring is already 12ga and the breakers are all 20's.

This GFCI is for a vanity top outlet. It feeds another vanity top outlet on the opposite wall and a lighting circuit for a light fixture adjacent or in a wet location - shower and/or tub. The receptacle I'm adding will be below the vanity - Hole/Grommet in countertop to feed lighted mirror, electric toothbrush charger, or some other accessories.

No you do not. This is a common misstatement.

 

[dave*99]

This slim GFCI will accept 2 wires at each terminal and leaves more room in the box.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013OVCIPG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[428PI]

That said I'm not too concerned when using wagos

I bought some of the cheap 4 wire wagos without the levers in my shed for temp wiring in my 15 amp box. We'll see how well they hold up. Haven't seen any reviews on the non lever ones. When I wired my receptacles I bought the more expensive commercial ones and ran my wires into the back and tightened down the screws and only used one screw to pass through to another receptacle. I can see this as being better as it won't cockeye the screw flange that contacts the wire. I may be totally wrong. I won't have constant power on these wires either.

 

[pattenp]

Thought I read recently that you had to use 20A receptacles on a 20A circuit?

A 20A receptacle is required if it's a 20A circuit with just a single dedicated receptacle. A duplex is two receptacles so a 15A duplex is allowed on a 20A circuit.

 

[rharman]

This slim GFCI will accept 2 wires at each terminal and leaves more room in the box.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013OVCIPG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Thanks but it doesn't have the USB ports my wife wants.
It's a deep box already installed.

 

[rharman]

So, I took a look at the existing setup today.

It's an extra large 2-gang box (36 cu in) but mighty crowded in there with a dimmer and GFCI.
There's the inbound feed and 3 outbound.
Don't think I can get the new GFCI to go in.

I found an even bigger box at Home Depot - 48 cu in. It's like a small apartment in there!

BUT.... It gains the space by being very deep - basically, bottoms out on the drywall on the other side.
My concern is that the extra bit of depth (~1/2") will mean that the Romex sheathing won't penetrate into the box since the "inlets" are further back compared to the existing box. There's no slack. It would end up being just the conductors penetrating the box and I'm sure that's a big NO!

Is there some way to compensate? Heat shrink? Slip a small piece of additional sheathing over the existing to extend it?

My other thought was this... I've seen some boxes that have an extension "wing" on them to give a space to tuck the connections away.
Kind of like below although I'll be using a "new work" version. But, I need it in a deep double gang. Are these even made?

Box with "extension wing"


New 48 cu in box


I did think of using a 3-gang with a dummy cover on the 3rd. That would be really unattractive though - pretty sure that idea would get shot down.

Not that it matters but just background.... The existing was all done in 1993 as part of a whole house remodel w/2nd story addition.

Thanks!

 

[Zeke]

Not that much extra work to make a hole or 2 and pull the cable staples to gain length. I don't see why you can't use either some more sheathing or shrink tubing to cover wires to the box entrance. How short are you? Maybe a metal box with cable clamps can catch the sheath. You're going to be short in the box too. I use wagos when that occurs.

 

[rharman]

Not sure what you mean by "make a hole or 2".
Pulling the staples won't help with the length issue.

I haven't tried the new box yet but it looks like I'll be, maybe, 3/4" short on sheathing. Slipping a short piece over the existing to extend it seems like a reasonable solution to me. Maybe heat shrink under that as well.

Thought about a metal box but haven't seen one that big (deep).

There appears to be plenty of wire in the box. I have ordered Wago's (due here tomorrow) just thinking they'll be less bulky than red wire nuts. I'll have to clip the twisted ends off and re-strip to get a straight piece for the Wago's.

 

[Zeke]

I'm not sure either. I drilled a hole or 2 and lost count.

 

[PCustoms]

Not sure what you mean by "make a hole or 2".
Pulling the staples won't help with the length issue.

I haven't tried the new box yet but it looks like I'll be, maybe, 3/4" short on sheathing. Slipping a short piece over the existing to extend it seems like a reasonable solution to me. Maybe heat shrink under that as well.

Thought about a metal box but haven't seen one that big (deep).

There appears to be plenty of wire in the box. I have ordered Wago's (due here tomorrow) just thinking they'll be less bulky than red wire nuts. I'll have to clip the twisted ends off and re-strip to get a straight piece for the Wago's.

Pretty sure that's not OK.

Post an actual pic, and the PN of what you are trying to hookup. Sounds like in addition to the wires being short you might be at the box fill limit.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Sounds like quite the setup.
Just to be clear, you are adding an outlet below the vanity and feeding appliance cords through a hole in counter top down to the outlet? Sounds like you are already dealing with holes.
You could do a three gang at the existing location and/or run new line down to the below counter opening.
If you can find an option that gets sheathing into the box, the rest is doable without going nuts. Go with the deepest box that works. I doubt this will be the last time you're in that box. Might as well make it usable.

BTW, there has to be a number of GFI receptacles with USB that would work. Those pig tale versions do take a lot of room and don't have much flexibility on installation.

 

[Bob Heine]

I'm going to be adding a 20A receptacle in a new box off an existing GFCI in our master bath. Actually, the GFCI will get replaced as well - 30 years old and tamper-resistant is now required as well as I want to have the USB outlets. All the wiring is 12ga Romex.

There is already a load on the device so I think I'll need to pigtail it to add my new 12-2. I recall reading somewhere that stranded is preferred for pigtails. Is that true? I can see where it would be a lot easier to deal with when putting everything back in the box. If so, I'll need to buy a foot or so of stranded.

If I can/should use 12ga solid, is it acceptable to pull the individual wires out of a piece of Romex? Or, do I need to purchase separate THHN? In that case, stranded would be an easy option if preferred/allowed.

Also, opinions on Wago's or wire nuts? I have some doubts on Wago's - they remind me of back-stab connections.

Thanks!

The new GCFI is: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/gusb2-w

Roger, if you are replacing the existing GFCI and feeding the new box from it, you don't need another GFCI outlet. Here's an explanation I cut from the Leviton instruction sheet for a single GFCI protecting multiple outlets on the same circuit.

The plain USB outlets are a bit smaller so that might help your space problem. It seems more and more stuff is USB rechargeable so I would go for an outlet with 3 USB outlets along with two 20A grounded outlets. I can't seem to find any from Leviton but I found two that look interesting. The ELEGRP outlet shows dimensions but looks as large as the Leviton GFCI/USB outlet. The TOPGREENER doesn't specify dimensions but it looks smaller in the photo but Amazon only offers it in a 2-pack (not a problem for me because I'm putting these in several places).

ELEGRP:



(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZJBVBD6/?tag=atomicindus08-20)

TOPGREENER:

(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B095NY7BRR/?tag=atomicindus08-20)

 

[rharman]

Pretty sure that's not OK.

Post an actual pic, and the PN of what you are trying to hookup. Sounds like in addition to the wires being short you might be at the box fill limit.

Checked the fill limit and I appear to be OK. Existing is 36 cu in, possible replacement is 48 cu in.

But, the 48 cu in will almost surely cause the sheathing to come up short. I'll know more tomorrow.
Just got the Wagos so going to see if that helps to use the existing box.

 

[rharman]

Sounds like quite the setup.
Just to be clear, you are adding an outlet below the vanity and feeding appliance cords through a hole in counter top down to the outlet? Sounds like you are already dealing with holes.
You could do a three gang at the existing location and/or run new line down to the below counter opening.
If you can find an option that gets sheathing into the box, the rest is doable without going nuts. Go with the deepest box that works. I doubt this will be the last time you're in that box. Might as well make it usable.

BTW, there has to be a number of GFI receptacles with USB that would work. Those pig tale versions do take a lot of room and don't have much flexibility on installation.

Yes, the new countertop/vanity will be built to allow cords to pass through a grommet hole.
It's the makeup area of the vanity.
That will allow my wife to plug in some stuff without the cords cluttering up the countertop to a great extent.

Not sure what you mean about "already dealing with holes".

The 3-gang would be a great solution by using a dummy plate or just a slim outlet. Not sure the wife would like the look though.

Agreed, this is not rocket science. Just the issue of, if I need the giant box, dealing with the Romex sheathing.

I will look at alternatives. I went with the Leviton because... Well, Leviton - and, that's consistent with every other switch/receptacle in the house.

The attached pigtails actually kind of work in my favor since they're stranded and easier to tuck away.

 

[rharman]

Roger, if you are replacing the existing GFCI and feeding the new box from it, you don't need another GFCI outlet. Here's an explanation I cut from the Leviton instruction sheet for a single GFCI protecting multiple outlets on the same circuit.

The plain USB outlets are a bit smaller so that might help your space problem. It seems more and more stuff is USB rechargeable so I would go for an outlet with 3 USB outlets along with two 20A grounded outlets. I can't seem to find any from Leviton but I found two that look interesting. The ELEGRP outlet shows dimensions but looks as large as the Leviton GFCI/USB outlet. The TOPGREENER doesn't specify dimensions but it looks smaller in the photo but Amazon only offers it in a 2-pack (not a problem for me because I'm putting these in several places).

ELEGRP:

(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZJBVBD6/?tag=atomicindus08-20)

TOPGREENER:

(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B095NY7BRR/?tag=atomicindus08-20)

Bob, yes I know I don't need a second GFCI. The new receptacle below the vanity will just be a duplex with USB fed from the "load" side of the GFCI up top - which will also have USB ports.

Already put a deep horizontal mount box where it will sit below the makeup table part of the vanity. Just waiting to assemble everything.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Yes, the new countertop/vanity will be built to allow cords to pass through a grommet hole.
It's the makeup area of the vanity.
That will allow my wife to plug in some stuff without the cords cluttering up the countertop to a great extent.

Not sure what you mean about "already dealing with holes".

The 3-gang would be a great solution by using a dummy plate or just a slim outlet. Not sure the wife would like the look though.

Agreed, this is not rocket science. Just the issue of, if I need the giant box, dealing with the Romex sheathing.

I will look at alternatives. I went with the Leviton because... Well, Leviton - and, that's consistent with every other switch/receptacle in the house.

The attached pigtails actually kind of work in my favor since they're stranded and easier to tuck away.

I tend to talk slang a bit.
In relation to "dealing with holes" I meant you are already making a hole for the under counter box. You are also looking at changing an existing box?

I do agree that the three gang might be more obnoxious with a dummy on the last gang. My wife would probably hate that idea too. Your current box has a dimmer, GFCI outlet, and line feed. I'm just doing some brainstorming and trying to figure out an option for the third slot besides a dummy. I'm not coming up with anything that helps the aesthetics.

I get the idea of working with the pigtales. I've opened some boxes and wondered how they ever fit all that stuff. 12ga is even tougher. It might be worth taking a shopping trip to look at low profile GFCI and see if you find something that gives you more room.

 

[PCustoms]

@rharman

What about a 3 gang as follows: GFCI, dimmer, USB charger?

 

[rharman]

There is some chance I could switch to a GFCI breaker. We're removing a steam shower unit as part of this remodel which will open up 2 slots (240V). I *might* be able to do something there but I'd hire it out to work in the panel. In my younger days, I'd take it on no problem and did so. Not comfortable with it now for some reason.

The only downside is it puts all the lighting on GFCI which would be remote from the bathroom. So, if it trips, all the lights go out and it's a run downstairs to reset.

I tend to talk slang a bit.
In relation to "dealing with holes" I meant you are already making a hole for the under counter box. You are also looking at changing an existing box?

I do agree that the three gang might be more obnoxious with a dummy on the last gang. My wife would probably hate that idea too. Your current box has a dimmer, GFCI outlet, and line feed. I'm just doing some brainstorming and trying to figure out an option for the third slot besides a dummy. I'm not coming up with anything that helps the aesthetics.

I get the idea of working with the pigtales. I've opened some boxes and wondered how they ever fit all that stuff. 12ga is even tougher. It might be worth taking a shopping trip to look at low profile GFCI and see if you find something that gives you more room.

Ahh.... Nope, no holes sorta. A lot of the drywall was removed due to water damage from a leaking in-the-wall-pipe. So, I have great access right now.

 

[rharman]

@rharman

What about a 3 gang as follows: GFCI, dimmer, USB charger?

Thought of that as an option too. Also, perhaps using the 3rd slot for a Decora style LED nightlight. I thought of that last night when I looked into our laundry room and noticed the one I put in there several years ago. I *think* it was pretty low profile.

 

[rharman]

So, here's a pic of the full panel. There are two singles in the box - slot 1 & 11. Not sure if there is anything special about them and why they were not a tandem. Any logical reason for that? They're all 20A.

If I could move one of those circuits to the tandem that my bathroom is currently on, I could put a GFCI in that spot.

But.... I'll need to identify the neutral from that bathroom feed, correct? The GFCI will require both wires to be connected. Seems like it should be reasonably simple since I know which hot wire and should be able to find that NM-B entering the panel.

Only two single breakers - one at the top, one down lower (just above an existing GFCI).



My plan to use a slot from removing the steam shower breaker looks to be a no-go. It's one of these below the existing GFCI.

 

[Wiz02]

While I know that changing an outlet isn't the end of the world, but electronics standards aren't long lived and putting in 120 vac outlets with integrated usb outlets that are bound to become obsolete in a few years, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[PCustoms]

While I know that changing an outlet isn't the end of the world, but electronics standards aren't long lived and putting in 120 vac outlets with integrated usb outlets that are bound to become obsolete in a few years, doesn't make sense to me.

The current USB standards are pretty well set, at least for several years I think.

Thinking about it though, are you in the bathroom long enough to get a beneficial charge?

 

[Wiz02]

I've been burned too many times over the years to trust any electronic standard to last more than 5 years, 10 at the outside.

 

[dave*99]

The current USB standards are pretty well set, at least for several years I think.

Thinking about it though, are you in the bathroom long enough to get a beneficial charge?

Depends on how much Chili I ate.

 

[rharman]

The current USB standards are pretty well set, at least for several years I think.

Thinking about it though, are you in the bathroom long enough to get a beneficial charge?

Overnight is most likely use. Toothbrush, FitBit, etc.

 

[Fav Onefour]

I guess I missed the part about redoing some of the drywall.
Honestly, if you are already patching, now is the time to run whatever you want.
What is on the backside of the wall with the dimmer and GFCI?
If the backside is a closet etc? It would be an option to cut in a junction box higher up and run whatever down from that location. That would fix the short wire issue as well without going back to the panel.

 

[dave*99]

We had a vanity area in the master BR closet. I installed a spring wound Intermatic 60 minute timer in the same box with 2 duplex receptacles. One duplex was controlled by the timer. One ran on constant power.
This was installed the day after my wife thought she left her curling iron plugged in when she left for work........

 

[rharman]

I guess I missed the part about redoing some of the drywall.
Honestly, if you are already patching, now is the time to run whatever you want.
What is on the backside of the wall with the dimmer and GFCI?
If the backside is a closet etc? It would be an option to cut in a junction box higher up and run whatever down from that location. That would fix the short wire issue as well without going back to the panel.

Backside is the master bedroom so that's a no-go. Issue is the NM-B comes in both top & bottom so moving one direction won't solve it.

 

[zanyad]

Thought of that as an option too. Also, perhaps using the 3rd slot for a Decora style LED nightlight. I thought of that last night when I looked into our laundry room and noticed the one I put in there several years ago. I *think* it was pretty low profile.

I was going to suggest that!

 

[dave*99]

Do you have a vanity cabinet below the box we are discussing? If so, put a junction box in the cabinet. Run the lower Romex into it. Add another piece up to the upper box. Move the upper box up enough to catch the top Romex.

If there is no cabinet ---- same solution, just locate the JB high up underneath the countertop.

If you have a 3rd spot to fill in a JB, use a separate GFCI and USB charger (one without a receptacle)

4 Port 4.8A USB Type-C / A Wall Outlet, Vertical Charging Ports, Wall Plate Included

In-wall outlet featuring four high speed charging ports with a total of 4.8A charging capacity. Two standard USB-A and two USB-C ports. Wall plate included.

www.maxximastyle.com

 

[PCustoms]

Do you have a vanity cabinet below the box we are discussing? If so, put a junction box in the cabinet. Run the lower Romex into it. Add another piece up to the upper box. Move the upper box up enough to catch the top Romex.

If there is no cabinet ---- same solution, just locate the JB high up underneath the countertop.

If you have a 3rd spot to fill in a JB, use a separate GFCI and USB charger (one without a receptacle)

4 Port 4.8A USB Type-C / A Wall Outlet, Vertical Charging Ports, Wall Plate Included

In-wall outlet featuring four high speed charging ports with a total of 4.8A charging capacity. Two standard USB-A and two USB-C ports. Wall plate included.

www.maxximastyle.com

I was thinking is the other day. There's also approved in-wall splices (note: I would personally not use, but they are approved).

 

[rharman]

SUCCESS!

Thanks to Amazon 7am delivery and some quality time spent rooting around in the existing box, I was able to make room for the new GFCI and new NM-B for the additional receptacle!

I rerouted some of the wires in each bundle to make a cleaner path inside and was able to get the wire nuts far enough back for everything to fit. It was a wrestling match at times. My wife was in the next room and could hear all the movement through the wall. She called out "Who's winning?".

I ended up ordering a Pass & Seymour GFCI with USB (type A & C) that had screw terminals instead of the built-in leads on the Leviton. I also replaced the pigtails to the GFCI with stranded 12ga which helped a lot.

I'd sure like to know what wire it is that they use on those Leviton built-in leads. Reminds me of the conductors in SJ cord - super flexible. I had some 12ga THHN so I used that - more flexible than solid but still a bit stiff. I doubt the SJ conductors would be OK to use, correct? Sure would be easier to manipulate though.

Now, I need to replace the horizontal box I used for the new receptacle. It's the type with the adjustable metal bracket that hooks on a stud. It's really floppy - a lot of flex in the bracket. I found a deep box on Amazon that uses two screws for mounting - we'll see how that goes - probably tomorrow.

And, lastly, the Leviton receptacle with USB's stands quite proud of the cover plate. Looks kind of funky. Pass & Seymour doesn't appear to make a receptacle in the same layout as the GFCI but I'm still looking.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

 

[dave*99]

I had the same issue with the face of the Leviton being proud of the adjacent device in the same box.