Question regarding main lugs in 200amp panel

[jchetty]

A person that works electrical jobs is not an electrician. If you (or the sub-contractor) is not licensed, you are not an electrician.

Under no circumstances should you remove your own meter. Out here (NJ), the local utility owns the meter. The meters are placed and removed using 600 volt, electrically-insulated gloves in addition to FR long sleeve shirt, FR pants, hard hat, safety glasses, and safety boots.

Before the meter is put back into service: the mains are opened, the service characteristics are verified, a jumper is installed, and you check for backfeed and grounds (not in that order). Ever seen a meter explode that GT put back in- going phase to ground is a bad day.

Don’t think that pulling a meter is a safe job. It can be very dangerous even if you know what you are doing. When the service is live (underground or overhead feed has not been disconnected), just popping the meter back in is a roll of the dice. You must test your test equipment, do your appropriate tests, and retest your test equipment prior to plugging in a meter.

You should have a licensed electrician do this job. Save money somewhere else. You want that entrance wire examined. If it damaged, fix it ASAP. If that were my panel, I would have it replaced. Looks like too many people were in there and I really don’t like the way it looks.

 

[DerStig]

A person that works electrical jobs is not an electrician. If you (or the sub-contractor) is not licensed, you are not an electrician.

Under no circumstances should you remove your own meter. Out here (NJ), the local utility owns the meter. The meters are placed and removed using 600 volt, electrically-insulated gloves in addition to FR long sleeve shirt, FR pants, hard hat, safety glasses, and safety boots.

Before the meter is put back into service: the mains are opened, the service characteristics are verified, a jumper is installed, and you check for backfeed and grounds (not in that order). Ever seen a meter explode that GT put back in- going phase to ground is a bad day.

Don’t think that pulling a meter is a safe job. It can be very dangerous even if you know what you are doing. When the service is live (underground or overhead feed has not been disconnected), just popping the meter back in is a roll of the dice. You must test your test equipment, do your appropriate tests, and retest your test equipment prior to plugging in a meter.

You should have a licensed electrician do this job. Save money somewhere else. You want that entrance wire examined. If it damaged, fix it ASAP. If that were my panel, I would have it replaced. Looks like too many people were in there and I really don’t like the way it looks.

Let me be clear. I am hiring an electrician to do this job. But I am responsible for sourcing the replacement lugs for this job (if I can). The reason why I asked for direction wasnt so that I can do it myself but it was more for me to do some research and see how involved this repair is - if the lugs can be repaired/replaced.

If not, then at the very least the electrician will still pull the meter and remove the surge protector wires. But my thought process was while thats happening, if I can, I should get the lugs replaced as well.

Going back to topic. This is a Siemens G4040MB1200 load center with a 200A main breaker. Can these lugs be replaced?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

top right lug on my panel is burnt as well

View media item 102313

Can someone point me in the right direction as far as how those lugs can be replaced? Is it difficult? Assuming I can find them from siemens.

The above lugs look like theyre integral to the breaker.

The picture is konda blurry and it wont let me
open it so I cant tell for sure.

Is there a disconnect ahead of this or just a meter? If the latter then you will have to have the PoCo disconnect the power first.

 

[mike93lx]

Let me be clear. I am hiring an electrician to do this job. But I am responsible for sourcing the replacement lugs for this job (if I can). The reason why I asked for direction wasnt so that I can do it myself but it was more for me to do some research and see how involved this repair is - if the lugs can be repaired/replaced.

If not, then at the very least the electrician will still pull the meter and remove the surge protector wires. But my thought process was while thats happening, if I can, I should get the lugs replaced as well.

Going back to topic. This is a Siemens G4040MB1200 load center with a 200A main breaker. Can these lugs be replaced?

Did you check the tag for part numbers or try checking the Siemens site?

 

[Terry D]

They might be part of the main breaker. I thought the lugs were not burnt, just looked like someone grounded something on it. I think they are ok . I would not worry about it

 

[jchetty]

.

Let me be clear. I am hiring an electrician to do this job. But I am responsible for sourcing the replacement lugs for this job (if I can). The reason why I asked for direction wasnt so that I can do it myself but it was more for me to do some research and see how involved this repair is - if the lugs can be repaired/replaced.

If not, then at the very least the electrician will still pull the meter and remove the surge protector wires. But my thought process was while thats happening, if I can, I should get the lugs replaced as well.

Going back to topic. This is a Siemens G4040MB1200 load center with a 200A main breaker. Can these lugs be replaced?

Guys,

I already have a siemens Fs140 surge protector installed (I did it) on a proper 20 amp breaker. This old surge protector does not need to be there. Sorry if I wasnt clear on my OP. I put a link in my OP about what protector I installed.

I have no idea what surgeprotector this one is (on main lugs), who installed it etc.

I do have a meter outside. there is a lock on it. Do i need to call the electrical company to open it?

Once I open it, i turn off the power, then loosen the lugs and remove?

1) how much torque do you need to tighten? I have various torque wrenches so I can be precise
2) What size allen head do you need for those lugs?

If you weren’t planning on doing it, I would think the licensed electrician would know the torque value and bring his/her own tools

So going back to topic, the licensed electrician will replace the entrance lugs for the panel and the main breaker at a minimum. The licensed electrician will also cut back the damaged wire and replaced the antioxidation grease. Also, he/she will inspect the panel for damage.

 

[DerStig]

.





If you weren’t planning on doing it, I would think the licensed electrician would know the torque value and bring his own tools

So going back to topic, the licensed electrician will replace the entrance lugs for the panel and the main breaker at a minimum. The licensed electrician will also cut back the damaged wire and replaced the antioxidation grease. Also, he/she will inspect the panel for damage.

You are quoting a post I made BEFORE i was advised by several members on what you are advising me. Once I read people’s comments on how dangerous this is, I got it. I am going to pay for an electrician. So there is no point of making the same point again and again.

I would like to source the replacement parts myself. I would like the licensed electrician to simply come in and do the repair. I dont want him to come, look, go back and try to find lugs for a 30 year old ITE panel and days go by and most likely he wont have time to keep looking for the parts. Also given the covid-19, I want him to come once and fix things the same time. I dont want multiple visits.

So can we please go back to my question of whether these lugs are sourceable? You seem to know a lot about this, maybe you can provide some helpful advice on where I can get these or if its even possible?

I am reposting my pictures here along with the details of the panel which shows the model number and the lugs being used (and I searched google what the panel sticker says about lugs but its very generic and cant find the right ones).

Its Siemens G4040MB1200 Series .C Type 1

 

[Terry D]

Google EQ9685. They don't look like the lugs are on it . It looks that panel may be a convertible panel, could be main breaker or main lug. Lugs may be part of the panel. Try contacting seimens with the panel #

 

[jchetty]

That is what Siemens refers to as a single-phase, residential load center. Who ever you hire is going to take a picture of that panel and go to the supply house. That pic lists all the parts that are serviceable for the panel. A decent supply house should have it in stock.

Whoever you hire is most likely not going to use the parts you buy. Understand once they touch that panel, they pretty much own it.

At a minimum, they will source their own parts. It is very likely that they won’t do the repair without putting in a new panel as the possible headache may not be worth.

If you know the person well, they may accept your parts. If you don’t, save your money. The part should be serviceable. The repair person should pull it off and do a thorough check of your panel to see if the bus bars were damaged by the flash.

 

[DerStig]

That is what Siemens refers to as a single-phase, residential load center. Who ever you hire is going to take a picture of that panel and go to the supply house. That pic lists all the parts that are serviceable for the panel. A decent supply house should have it in stock.

Whoever you hire is most likely not going to use the parts you buy. Understand once they touch that panel, they pretty much own it.

At a minimum, they will source their own parts. It is very likely that they won’t do the repair without putting in a new panel as the possible headache may not be worth.

If you know the person well, they may accept your parts. If you don’t, save your money. The part should be serviceable. The repair person should pull it off and do a thorough check of your panel to see if the bus bars were damaged by the flash.

Remove the entire panel to inspect it? I respectfully disagree with your assessment. You have made a fair point about handling of the meter and I wont touch it. But to inspect other damage the panel must be removed? First of all, the bus bars are visible wide open. Why do you need to remove the panel to inspect it? Second of all, why do you need to replace the entire panel when clearly the damage is local to that lug? This is exactly the type of response I heard not only from electricians but plumbers or car mechanics over the years that got me to learn and educate myself.

I would like to remind you that this issue happened probably several years ago, we moved in 5 years ago and at the very least nothing went wrong for 5 years. No other home owner would even notice this. I only came to know on my own and want to fix it because its bothering me as I want things neat and clean.

I even checked the temperature of the lugs with a laser thermometer under load.

 

[Terry D]

Remove the entire panel to inspect it? I respectfully disagree with your assessment. You have made a fair point about handling of the meter and I wont touch it. But to inspect other damage the panel must be removed?

I would like to remind you that this issue happened probably several years ago, we moved in 5 years ago and at the very least nothing went wrong for 5 years. No other home owner would even notice this. I only came to know on my own and want to fix it because its bothering me as I want things neat and clean.

I even checked the temperature of the lugs with a laser thermometer under load.

Like I said, try contacting Siemens with your panel number to see if replacement ones are available. Or find a supply house that is a Siemen's dealer. Here is a st Louis number to metro electric supply, they are a Siemen's dealer. Ask for John Foley 314 645-5656. This is the best help I can offer. I personally don't thing there is anything wrong with the lug, but im not there standing in front of it. I will say, if I came to look at your panel, and you had factory replacement lugs for that panel, I mean the exact ones. I would replace them no problem, if there was no other damage. It would save me the time trying to locate them. From the pictures, it still looks like someone grounded it with a tool or something causing that arc mark. It looks like its on the surface not internal. But im just going by a picture

 

[jchetty]

Remove the entire panel to inspect it? I respectfully disagree with your assessment. You have made a fair point about handling of the meter and I wont touch it. But to inspect other damage the panel must be removed?

I would like to remind you that this issue happened probably several years ago, we moved in 5 years ago and at the very least nothing went wrong for 5 years. No other home owner would even notice this. I only came to know on my own and want to fix it because its bothering me as I want things neat and clean.

I even checked the temperature of the lugs with a laser thermometer under load.

No, not remove the panel to inspect. That is not my assessment. They will want to at least inspect the panel. This will be done to check to see if there is any damage.

What is also very plausible is they will want to replace the entire panel. If the bus bar sustained damage or discoloration, you can probably count on it.

Look at it like this- do starter rebuild kits exist- yes. If you take a car to mechanic, very unlikely they will rebuild the starter. They will put in a new or remanufactured starter. They usually don’t cut the rotor even if they can get in spec. Instead they put on a new one.

So if the wire looks damaged, the one lug looks damaged, and who knows what the bus bar looks like. The electrician may not want to rebuild it and instead will insist on putting in a new panel.

To be honest, it is very good you caught this. As a matter of fact, I advise every one to mount a fire alarm by the main panel.

 

[DerStig]

No, not remove the panel to inspect. That is not my assessment. They will want to at least inspect the panel. This will be done to check to see if there is any damage.

What is also very plausible is they will want to replace the entire panel. If the bus bar sustained damage or discoloration, you can probably count on it.

Look at it like this- do starter rebuild kits exist- yes. If you take a car to mechanic, very unlikely they will rebuild the starter. They will put in a new or remanufactured starter. They usually don’t cut the rotor even if they can get in spec. Instead they put on a new one.

So if the wire looks damaged, the one lug looks damaged, and who knows what the bus bar looks like. The electrician may not want to rebuild it and instead will insist on putting in a new panel.

To be honest, it is very good you caught this. As a matter of fact, I advise every one to mount a fire alarm by the main panel.

Ok, I misunderstood you.

Let me explain a few other things:

- I have removed (not for this purpose) two first breakers on this panel on each leg. I did not see any damage on the main bus. There is no damage behind the wire or the black plastic trim piece.
- I actually had 2 different electricians look at this. They were licensed electricians. One of them even felt the wire to see how tight it was and very closely looked around the lug. Both of them told me this was fine and its not worth the effort to replace anything. One of them openly said that the time it will take to locate this lug is so long (because this is an older panel) and the repair time is so short that he just wont waste any time (this was a guy who exclusively does small commercial jobs and had come in to help with something else as a favor to his friend who is my friend).
- Which brings me to the point of why I want to source the part myself. Because I hired someone who is also very good and I dont want the same issue. Plus as I said, I genuinely do not want someone in my home right now multiple times due to covid-19.

As for your other comment, I own 9 Nest alarms. 3 of them are placed in the basement. Of the 3, 1 of them is literally 6” to the right of the panel. These 9 are in addition to the 3 other older alarms. So I take this stuff very seriously.

I even have a security camera placed exactly across the panel, such that it is strategically placed and is able to show me if any of my breakers trip OR there is a problem with sump pump.

Yes!

 

[DerStig]

Like I said, try contacting Siemens with your panel number to see if replacement ones are available. Or find a supply house that is a Siemen's dealer. Here is a st Louis number to metro electric supply, they are a Siemen's dealer. Ask for John Foley 314 645-5656. This is the best help I can offer. I personally don't thing there is anything wrong with the lug, but im not there standing in front of it. I will say, if I came to look at your panel, and you had factory replacement lugs for that panel, I mean the exact ones. I would replace them no problem, if there was no other damage. It would save me the time trying to locate them. From the pictures, it still looks like someone grounded it with a tool or something causing that arc mark. It looks like its on the surface not internal. But im just going by a picture

Thanks Terry. I will give it a shot. I used to live in st louis at some point and I still have family there (O’fallon). I love missouri

 

[DerStig]

Update : well damn. Siemens does not make the replacement parts for this panel anymore. The panel is 3 generations old. They couldnt even find part numbers. So, not much I can do besides replacing the entire panel which I dont think is necessary.

 

[mike93lx]

If it was worth replacing the lug, it's worth replacing the panel.
If it was in my house, I would probably make sure it was tight and not getting hot, then leave it alone. But considering it's age, a replacement would be a good proactive step anyway. Nothing lasts forever. Just be aware that a new panel may push you towards needing arc fault breakers

 

[DerStig]

If it was worth replacing the lug, it's worth replacing the panel.
If it was in my house, I would probably make sure it was tight and not getting hot, then leave it alone. But considering it's age, a replacement would be a good proactive step anyway. Nothing lasts forever. Just be aware that a new panel may push you towards needing arc fault breakers

I have someone who will come to inspect the panel and remove the surge protector. During the process, he will restrip the 4/0 wire, retorque the wire. Based on my pictures, I was told the damage appears to be superficial on the surface.

Replacing the panel is a lot of work. I have a 3/4" EMT conduit bringing 6x20 amp circuits in, it will probably take an entire day.

What temperature should I be looking at as a warning? I'm assuming putting a lot of amps and monitoring the increase in temperature with a laser gun is acceptable?

 

[rrangus]

In my area Duke Energy will install the surge protectors for you at no charge. You have to furnish the surge protectors.