questions about pole barns

[taem]

I know this is the Garage Journal, but I see a lot of posts about pole buildings.I am thinking about building a 40x60 pole building and have a few questions. It is meant to be pretty simple and inexpensive if such a thing is possible. I have my poles courtesy of the power co. and am cutting spruce and fir this winter to saw into rough full dimension lumber for the frame and will buy engineered trusses for the roof which will be metal over OSB. I expect to have a gravel pad, poles 4' in ground on a concrete cookie spaced 8',perimeter drain (some water passes under adjacent road in the spring and I don't want to deal with freezing and heaving) metal siding over 2x6 horizontal nailers.

So, a couple of questions: is it possible to put gable end sliding doors, site built one at each end, hung on the INSIDE and sliding to a stop? I hate dealing with doors frozen down and having to shovel out on the sliding door on my barn and don't mind losing a little interior space to do that. I am on the Canadian border and we get plenty of snow. Overhead doors are not in the budget. When I google inside sliding doors, I get a lot of fancy apartment pictures, no agricultural, which makes me wonder if this is a bad idea.

Second question: I was thinking about a layer of aluminum faced bubble insulation under the OSB to avoid condensation on the wood and provide a little reflective insulation in the summer. Not much insulating value, but I wondered if having it as a vapor barrier was worth it to keep the wood dry. the building will be unheated and except for OSB on the roof, no interior finish.

Any answers to these questions or other observations would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Jbullfrog]

aluminum faced bubble insulation is literally for the birds. It will break down over time and let your roof leak around the screws. Most contractors refuse to enclose a shed built with round power poles, as they are smaller at the top then the bottom and usually not straight. Go with laminated or stacked 2x6 posts and a concrete knee wall footer.

 

[Lacenterbrewing]

Sliding doors on the inside should be possible, the drawback is that your door size might be limited a little, might not be an issue for you, but I chose not to do one on the outside for that reason, mine is 30x36 and I am putting 2-12' rollup doors on one end. The other drawback, I've been told, is that it is difficult to properly seal a large sliding door, too much wind pressure on it so it bounces around. Again may not be a issue for you. Depending on how tall you are planning I question your pole depth, my engineer required a minimum of 5' embedment and I have a 14' eave height.
Best of luck

 

[matt_i]

I don't see an issue on the interior sliding door. It might be slightly more work to trim a "box" to help seal the upper edge of the door and the track.

The wind is pressing on the structure either way (pushing or pulling) depending on inside or out, I'd use more screws when mounting from the inside instead of nails which could be used on the outside. But screws are better and longer lasting in either scenario.

Getting a well-fitting square building could take some additional work with round posts as was mentioned above. Its either shim/block out or cut/shave back in.

 

[SALIV8]

I would go roll up door before I went sliding door on the inside.

Why?

1. You can size it however you’d like,

2. Nothing to keep clear

3. Better sealing and security

4. And easy to open

 

[Lacenterbrewing]

Just to clarify, wind pressure in my comment was related to the door itself, not the building, by it's very nature a sliding door has to be "loose" in order to slide it. Typically there isn't a continuous guide on the floor to keep it in place and where the door latches is usually looser as well, both these items add up to a lot of door movement when there is wind pressure on the door, thus the difficulty sealing.
Cheers

 

[dfiler2]

I have sliding doors on the inside, a 14' wide door means you can do 2 7' and slide one each way, works great and I have a regular chain drive opener on the inside. You do lose the wall space on the inside but you can also build another wall on the inside if you need that space.

 

[Ben W]

If you can saw rough cut hem and fir, how about squaring the utility poles? Btw, if the utility company is done with them, then are they worth re-using yourself on a building that you want to last for 50 years?

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I have a question about putting sliding doors on the inside of the structure. My pole barn has the doors on the outside and we have had 60 and 70 mph winds during storms. Since the wind blows the door against the framing for the opening on the sides and top and the slab on the bottom, the door doesn't go anywhere. If my doors were on the inside, I don't think the two 1/4 inch hooks that hold them closed would be able to sustain the wind load. Am I wrong about this? Is there something else one does when putting the doors on the inside to handle wind load?

 

[Jbullfrog]

I have a question about putting sliding doors on the inside of the structure. My pole barn has the doors on the outside and we have had 60 and 70 mph winds during storms. Since the wind blows the door against the framing for the opening on the sides and top and the slab on the bottom, the door doesn't go anywhere. If my doors were on the inside, I don't think the two 1/4 inch hooks that hold them closed would be able to sustain the wind load. Am I wrong about this? Is there something else one does when putting the doors on the inside to handle wind load?

Exactly. If the doors are on the inside the latches are all that holds them from blowing in. If a latch releases, the door will blow in and could cause major damage to the building as well. The other big problem is they would have to be smooth on the outside surface to slide against the wall. or fit with a 1-1/2 plus gap to clear the ribs.

 

[rburke65]

I’ve never heard anything good about the bubble Wrap.

 

[mitusa]

aluminum faced bubble insulation is literally for the birds. It will break down over time and let your roof leak around the screws. Most contractors refuse to enclose a shed built with round power poles, as they are smaller at the top then the bottom and usually not straight. Go with laminated or stacked 2x6 posts and a concrete knee wall footer.

I have built a few pole barns using similar poles.....we just squared the building and plumbed the outside edge of the poles. Not that hard.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

My opinion is that dimensional poles will save you so much time and energy that the cost would be negligible. Getting the outer edge of the utility pole straight, shimming girts to account for variations in pole diameter and the carving job needed at the top to make things fit is a lot more work with the non-uniform round poles than with dimensional poles.

 

[theoldwizard1]

IMHO, especially where the ground get seasonally very wet, you would be much better pouring piers that came above grade and attaching posts to the top of the pier. I would not use recycled power poles. Use 6x6 post "built up" from 2x6s. If these posts rest on a galvanized post base, you do not need pressure treated wood.

I will be a lot more expensive, but the best solution for insulating/vapor barrier of a metal sided building is 2" of closed cell spray foam. It seals up all the cracks and screw penetrations. You can add additional batts/rolled insulation latter.

 

[matt_i]

IMHO, especially where the ground get seasonally very wet, you would be much better pouring piers that came above grade and attaching posts to the top of the pier.

Question about how you develop the column's ability to resist the bending moment with a wood-to-concrete connection in the middle? Thin metal straps that get used on a deck don't approach the bending strength of a 6x6...keep in mind this is a post frame.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

IMHO, especially where the ground get seasonally very wet, you would be much better pouring piers that came above grade and attaching posts to the top of the pier. I would not use recycled power poles. Use 6x6 post "built up" from 2x6s. If these posts rest on a galvanized post base, you do not need pressure treated wood.

I will be a lot more expensive, but the best solution for insulating/vapor barrier of a metal sided building is 2" of closed cell spray foam. It seals up all the cracks and screw penetrations. You can add additional batts/rolled insulation latter.

Then it wouldn’t be a pole building.

 

[speed bump]

Then it wouldn’t be a pole building.

Then what it is it? The poles are buried to deal with uplift, other than cost/complexity/time there isn't a reason to bury them versus putting them on piers. If you want racking resistance you need to bury them a lot deeper than normal post frame construction.

As far as protecting the doors I would be tempted to do a pocket door and leave the doors on the outside of the posts.

 

[WNYflyer]

Then what it is it? The poles are buried to deal with uplift, other than cost/complexity/time there isn't a reason to bury them versus putting them on piers. If you want racking resistance you need to bury them a lot deeper than normal post frame construction.

As far as protecting the doors I would be tempted to do a pocket door and leave the doors on the outside of the posts.

For the typical pole barn/building lateral resistance to wind etc. is dependent on the depth of burial of the post. If you want the post up on piers rather than buried in the ground then that is a whole different structural system than the typical buried post post pole barn/building and the building must be design accordingly.

 

[taem]

as to squaring them, cutting creosote is nasty and produces toxic sawdust; but they are worth using: they were in service and were removed when a bridge was rebuilt and replaced with taller poles.

 

[JeepYJ]

A guy down the road is building a pole barn with used utility poles that have been milled to 6x6 or 4x6.
I am also concerned about doors on the inside getting blown into the building. I’ve seen several pole barns where doors were left open on a different side and a strong storm comes through and literally blows the doors off the other side. Also they are impossible to seal up very tight. Depending on the size of door you’re wanting a roll up, especially if you can go uninsulated, probably isn’t much more than buying all the hardware needed for a slider.
If you’re putting your posts 8’ on center why not get the extra 4’ and go 64’? Not much more money in materials for the extra space.

 

[WNYflyer]

I know nothing about sliding doors for an enclosed pole building but I do know that every exterior wall per code needs to be designed for wind pressure/loads towards the exterior side of the wall as well as away (suction) from the exterior side of the wall. I would think door mounting hardware and installation instructions would account for this.

 

[dfiler2]

I have a question about putting sliding doors on the inside of the structure. My pole barn has the doors on the outside and we have had 60 and 70 mph winds during storms. Since the wind blows the door against the framing for the opening on the sides and top and the slab on the bottom, the door doesn't go anywhere. If my doors were on the inside, I don't think the two 1/4 inch hooks that hold them closed would be able to sustain the wind load. Am I wrong about this? Is there something else one does when putting the doors on the inside to handle wind load?

I have about a 1 1/2" lip in the concrete that my doors would blow against if they are closed and the wind won't get to them if they are open, I've seen lots of door blow off in the wind when open if they are on the outside.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Then what it is it? The poles are buried to deal with uplift, other than cost/complexity/time there isn't a reason to bury them versus putting them on piers. If you want racking resistance you need to bury them a lot deeper than normal post frame construction.

As far as protecting the doors I would be tempted to do a pocket door and leave the doors on the outside of the posts.

The buried poles in a pole building do provide resistance to racking and the typical 4ft depth is plenty. Without the embedment you need to build with normal stick framing techniques which includes diagonal bracing or sheathing to replace the embedded poles

 

[matt_i]

The buried poles in a pole building do provide resistance to racking and the typical 4ft depth is plenty. Without the embedment you need to build with normal stick framing techniques which includes diagonal bracing or sheathing to replace the embedded poles

And, I would say, when you make that choice, the low-cost of a traditional post-frame with buried posts, is gone. The O.P. seems to be building on a budget so trying to shift gears into a stick-frame construction by setting the posts on concrete piers, and eliminating their ability to bear side-moment, is going to add significant additional cost.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I have about a 1 1/2" lip in the concrete that my doors would blow against if they are closed and the wind won't get to them if they are open, I've seen lots of door blow off in the wind when open if they are on the outside.

I believe the OP's plans are for a gravel floor. What would prevent his doors from blowing in?

 

[csp]

Question about how you develop the column's ability to resist the bending moment with a wood-to-concrete connection in the middle? Thin metal straps that get used on a deck don't approach the bending strength of a 6x6...keep in mind this is a post frame.

The brackets used in this type of construction are far more robust than the straps you use on a deck. There are brackets for use on an existing stem wall or wet set into a freshly poured pier. Proper shear bracing for the win as well.

https://www.permacolumn.com/products/sturdi-wall

Skip forward to the 11:00 minute mark in this video.

 

[kbs2244]

Te best "answers to questions you didn't know you had" pole barn site is

https://www.pole-barn.info/pole-building-construction.html

Their downloadable booklet is great.

 

[dfiler2]

I believe the OP's plans are for a gravel floor. What would prevent his doors from blowing in?

At the edge of the door opening you can use a heavy duty roller, when there was no floor we used to bury a 3-4' pole then put one of these on the top of it, but you need that whether your door is on the inside or the outside.

https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...nter-guide/1555648/p-1444448475687-c-5718.htm

 

[taem]

Thanks for the many useful comments. I will certainly use the idea of a buried roller to keep the door from blowing about.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

I built 2 sliding doors, each 8'x8' to close off a "lean to" which was built as the 3rd bay of garage. ( Two enclosed garage bays, one open lean to ) The lean to worked well for a long time, but I needed to put a couple of tractors and a mower inside, so I built two doors to close off the lean to.

For my purposes, they work fine, but here are a couple of things for you to consider. The doors are heavy, I built frames of 2x4's, covered it with plywood, and dressed outside with some 3/4"x4" pine to make them look like old barn doors. Throughout the summer, I just close them, and all is fine, but in the winter the wind moves them around, so I have a couple of hooks to pull them against the building.

I bought the track and hangers from Central Tractor, or whatever it calls itself now and they do work okay, but when the snow comes out of the east, which is rare, but happens, some snow blows in through the space at the top of the doors. Also, they are about a inch above grade, so the chipmunks and squirrels always have free passage.

Again, for my purposes, they are fine, but just wanted you to know, they aren't a perfect door. Oh yeah, if you plan to heat the interior, you definitely don't want sliding doors.


Take care,

JBP




.

 

[Marctrees]

Te best "answers to questions you didn't know you had" pole barn site is

https://www.pole-barn.info/pole-building-construction.html

Their downloadable booklet is great.

Also, spend significant time reading all over the Hansen site for much knowledge.

Marc

"Guru Blog", and "Learning Center" below link -

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1bH8jPbj5gIVC9vACh3ryAgFEAAYASAAEgLjGPD_BwE