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Questions about shop concrete

TEXACMAN

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Feb 6, 2006
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284
Location
Mount Pleasant Texas
Well I am getting close to building a new shop at my new house. It is going to be a metal fab 30 x 30 with a 10 x10 overhead and one mandoor :rocker: . I do A/C work and since I am in the south I am installing a central heat and air unit for those extremely hot days. My question is my contractor is saying we don't need the plastic sheeting moisture barrier like they do in homes , I am thinking you do because of the humidity here and the fact that I am painting the floor along with airconditioning it. What do you fellows think about it? Thank you in advance. :bowdown:
Mitch
 
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sjsfire

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Feb 21, 2006
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Location
illinois
I would think you need it down. If it was my new shop either he'd lay it down or I'd do it before the pour. Maybe it's not needed in Texas but you sure would want it in Illinois. You might not be able to paint the floor due to moisture later if you don't.
 

Krodad

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Mar 25, 2006
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Iowa
Insulate the floor with extruded polystyrene (the blue stuff) and use 25psi foam. Most of the blue and pink stuff is 15psi, but you can find 25psi pretty easy. Also, if you thermally isolate the slab from the exterior by insulating between the foundation and slab, you will elimate the moisture drive into the slab from the perimeter.
I make my living in insulating concrete in various ways, so this is kind of a special topic for me.

And my first post!! Love this forum!!!
 
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T

TEXACMAN

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Feb 6, 2006
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Mount Pleasant Texas
Thanks guys , I will put in a moisture barrier , may do it myself after my buddy and I rough in the plumbing. This is my first post also , great response time. :thumbup:
 

gdf_77

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Mar 26, 2006
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Location
farmersburg, iowa
I did some pretty interested reading on "foil/bubble" wrap that can be used under concrete. I'll try to find a link and get back here.
 

brownbagg

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Mar 20, 2006
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I am a concrete inspector by trade. Yes you need the plastic. The main purpose of the plastic is to keep the subsoil from sucking the water out of the concrete mix and cracking the slab. Plastic is cheap
 

zeebad1

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Jan 2, 2006
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256
Location
Northern Illinois
Krodad said:
Insulate the floor with extruded polystyrene (the blue stuff) and use 25psi foam. Most of the blue and pink stuff is 15psi, but you can find 25psi pretty easy. Also, if you thermally isolate the slab from the exterior by insulating between the foundation and slab, you will elimate the moisture drive into the slab from the perimeter.
I make my living in insulating concrete in various ways, so this is kind of a special topic for me.

And my first post!! Love this forum!!!

A question that has always bugged me, and maybe you're the one to ask.

If heat rises, what is the advantage of insulating under the floor in a floor-heat system? I understand that the heat would transfer to the soil, but is that a bad thing. The larger the warm mass is would seem to be a plus to retaining an even heat. I'm sure someone has done comparisons on heat recovery & efficiency, but I've never seen the results.

Like I said, this is one of those questions that no-one has ever given me the actual proof for the answer.

Thanks, Gary.
 
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RAMBIN

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Jan 5, 2006
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canada
i wanna learn about this too.. and why do you need the higher psi foam for using it under the slab
 

Charles (in GA)

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Jan 11, 2006
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50 mi south of Atlanta
brownbagg said:
I am a concrete inspector by trade. Yes you need the plastic. The main purpose of the plastic is to keep the subsoil from sucking the water out of the concrete mix and cracking the slab. Plastic is cheap

Well put, its so cheap, why would you even consider not doing it?

Charles
 

Krodad

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Mar 25, 2006
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Location
Iowa
You can use the 15psi foam under the slab, but if you are going to put some significant point loads on the slab, 25psi is a better choice...the loading could be as simple as a floor jack under an f250, for example.

The insulation is advantageous for a few reasons.

1) The perm rating on EXTRUDED polystyrene makes it a very effective vapor retarder by itself (do not use the white beadboard...it is EXPANDED polystyrene and an absolute no-no in this application).

2) It will not absorb moisture. This type of material is used for floatation billets for decades without any appreciable gain in moisture. This will aid in the hydration of the concrete and give you a higher quality slab...much in the same manner as visqueen would do for you.

3) The insulating value of the material will remain constant. It has an r-value of 5 per inch, and this is the aged r-value. In this application, there is no other insulation board which will retain it's r-value over time to this degree...again, water absorption has a lot to do with this.

4) Here's where the insulated slab really gives you performance...

By insulating the slab in a VERY effective way, and eliminating the thermal bridging to the exterior and substrate, it now takes on the ambient temperature. This does a couple things for you. It now is not a colder temperature than the surrounding air in the spring, so it will not form condensate. If you have ever had a problem with a wet floor, this is one of the two causes...it's either moisture drive through the slab from the ground, or condensate from reaching the dewpoint somewhere within the slab. You have now eliminated both of the conditions that make this moisture appear.
Last, but by no means least, you are now using the mass of the concrete to your advantage. Yes, on a hot day, an uninsulated slab will be cooler, but that really does not add to any comfort for the inhabitants for the most part. If you are heating or cooling the garage, the mass of concrete will take on room temperature. In cold outside conditions, the concrete will take on heat energy, and when you have a door open, or bring in a cold car or equipment, that warm concrete slab will help reduce the spike load on the heater. It gives off btu's to the surroundings. Basically it's a giant thermal flywheel. The same thing, but in reverse happens if you run an air conditioner...hot car brought into a cooled garage with cooled slab will be able to absorb a lot of BTU's, and let the air conditioner deal with those btu's over a longer period of time, and act more efficiently.
The biggest benefit you will see from a HVAC performance area is in the winter when you are heating. In the summer, the insulation in the slab does not help you as much in that way, but the condensate issue is the key here during the spring months.


This enhanced mass performance is something that we can calculate quite easily, and it is a set of equations from ASHRAE, from which mechanical engineers base their load requirements for sizing the mechanical systems in all facility types.
 

zeebad1

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Jan 2, 2006
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Northern Illinois
Krodad said:
Basically it's a giant thermal flywheel.

This enhanced mass performance is something that we can calculate quite easily, and it is a set of equations from ASHRAE, from which mechanical engineers base their load requirements for sizing the mechanical systems in all facility types.

Thanks for the knowledgable insight. I KNEW somebody had this information.
 

Robbo

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Mar 6, 2006
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N. TX
Krodad said:
You can use the 15psi foam under the slab, but if you are going to put some significant point loads on the slab, 25psi is a better choice...the loading could be as simple as a floor jack under an f250, for example............requirements for sizing the mechanical systems in all facility types.

WOW! Great & informative post! :thumbup:

Rob
 

RAMBIN

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Jan 5, 2006
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canada
Robbo said:
WOW! Great & informative post! :thumbup:

Rob


how can u hurt or compress the styrfoam when ur jacking up a truck on top of at least 4 inches of concrete, concrete doesnt bend! or flex when its that thick, maybe i just need a good explanation cuz im missing something
:dunno:
 

Krodad

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Mar 25, 2006
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304
Location
Iowa
If you are close to a saw joint or corner, it's very possible to crack the concrete. It's simply an issue of a solid base for the concrete...same reason as pouring over a compacted base.
15psi foam is used every day under basement floors, but not reccomended under post jacks, for example. In commercial construction where there are big racks, the norm is 40 or 60 psi foam, depending on the load. These start to resemble blocks of wood, they are that dense.
I'm just a belt and suspenders kind of guy when it comes to concrete.
 

neblinc

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Apr 18, 2006
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425
Location
Lincoln, NE
So does the plastic go below or on top of the foam? I will be starting to get bids on concrete and want to ask these questions.

Randy
 
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