Questions and Advice needed for first major welding project

[RedTailHawk]

I just got started with welding and have a few small projects under my belt. Now I'm planning a larger project and would like some guidance.

I've attached a picture of a square steel tube frame suspended shelving that I saw at a restaurant in DC. (I'm planning to build something in this style for my new house.)

It will span the length of the 17' wall, and will hang down about 6' from a 10' high ceiling. I've attached a diagram showing the layout of the shelves I plan to build. It will be a bourbon bar in my billiard room.

I need suggestions for the size and gauge of the square steel tubes. I was originally thinking 1 1/2", as the 1" may look too dainty. However, I'm not sure what gauge steel I'd need. Once I know that, they I guess I match up an appropriate size wire for MIG welding.

 

[ilovevocs]

What type of structure is this attaching to? Ceiling joist? Floor joist? Size, spacing, type.

This is going to be the limiting factor in residential construction IMHO. You may find that 1.5 is not an option.

As far as tube how much money do you have to spend and what does your local suppliers stock. You may have Options between 1 and 1.5.

1.5 would give you more weld area and better aesthetic IMHO.

Lightest gauche stocked would probably be more than sufficient.

I would be More concerned with the connection to the structure than anything.

If this were my project I would be using square edge aluminum tube.

 

[zak77]

Looks like 2" in the picture so you may want to stay with 2" since 1 1/2 may look too small for such a large space. As for thickness, 11 gauge = 1/8" which would be very adequate for what you're looking to do. Probably no thinner than 13 gauge. Stick with .030 wire.

I just picked up a bunch of 2x2x1/8" and 1 1/2x1 1/2x 1/8" tubing for a trailer project yesterday and i was really debating on going lighter with the 1 1/2 tubing but i'm already overbuilding it anyways so may as well go stronger than i need. I highly doubt your structure will see the forces this trailer sees.

I dont know if you did the math or not but just for the 2x2 it's going to be about $1200

 

[memphisnate]

It looks like it's up against a wall so could you also attach it to the wall. You could keep the suspending look with wires but not have them carry all the weight.

 

[RedTailHawk]

All great feedback so far. I am planning to secure it to the ceiling and the back wall. Haven't figured out exact details of how, but the first thought that comes to mind to weld little metal tabs to the sides of the square steel tubes, drill a hole in them and use lag bolts to secure to the wall studs. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Once I weld, grind, and lightly polish, I will try out this product (SUR FIN EZ Black 70) to put a black patina on the steel.

Before I start buying all the material for this project, I'm planning one more quick project: building a welding cart using all the same types of square steel tube. That'll give me a bit more practice and confidence in my skills, welding techniques from Bob Moffatt (

), and to make sure I've got all the settings correct on my welder: Vulcan OmniPro 220.

 

[Kaizen]

You using glass as well? Don’t forget the support tabs. Size should be scaled for the space and look desired. The weight when fully loaded would be my concern. Solid 2x in ceiling and wall? Can it be beefed up by adding more structure to transfer load to floor? Did you map out the studs to see the studs are close to the uprights? Gonna be heavy when loaded


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[RedTailHawk]

You using glass as well? Don’t forget the support tabs. Size should be scaled for the space and look desired. The weight when fully loaded would be my concern. Solid 2x in ceiling and wall? Can it be beefed up by adding more structure to transfer load to floor? Did you map out the studs to see the studs are close to the uprights? Gonna be heavy when loaded


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Yep. Glass inset shelves and LED lights tucked in to illuminate the glass shelf and bourbon bottles.

I’m thinking about breaking up the steel shelves into 2 sections (left and right side) and in the middle use Alaskan chainsaw milled slabs for shelves that link the 2 steel sections.

Behind the entire structure, I’ll install black ship/plank board on the wall.


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[bugnut]

For mounting I'd suggest drilling thru the tubing and going thru this will take planning so you know where to drill but would provide strong holder, less tab welding a a cleaner view

 

[850xpeps]

I’d be more concerned about wall structure to support this than anything. 1/8” wall tube is plenty. I would have a pile of blocking in that wall. I would not be relying on studs. Also are you building this inside the house? And having to work around it while the build process goes on?

 

[bigguns69]

1 1/2" square tube with wall thickness 11 ga. or 14 ga. should be more than sufficient. You have a lot of structure there for rigidity.

 

[sberry]

There is a big difference between 11 and 14. 1/8 is about 10 but, stuff like this is usually 16 which is a little harder to weld but a lot lighter and cheaper. Light is good here.

 

[yaidunno]

There is a big difference between 11 and 14. 1/8 is about 10 but, stuff like this is usually 16 which is a little harder to weld but a lot lighter and cheaper. Light is good here.

Agreed. 16 ga. (.065) wall tube is more than adequate for this application. It is available in 1-1/2, 1-3/4, and 2 inch square.

 

[bradpac]

I would say the lighter the better. 16ga if you can get it. 1-1/2" or 2" should look good, but the bigger the tube the less shelf space you have in the given area. so make sure your bottles will fit.

If your structure is lighter, then it's less overall weight your house has to hold up.

Find the studs and joists and mark them. Mock the structure into place holding it up with more steel or 2x4s and drill straight through the tubes at every stud and joist to mount. Then I'd pull it out and do any finishing, run wiring, etc after the mockup in case you run into fit issues.

 

[RedTailHawk]

lots of great things to consider.

I like the idea of drilling straight thru the tubes at every stud and joist. Should I drill a larger hole on the topside of the steel so that the bolt can be recessed inside the square tube? I guess its either have a exposed hole or the actual bolt head showing.

 

[RedTailHawk]

Calculating weight and cost...(gulp)

Using 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 16 ga, 72" long (40qty) square steel, I estimate 303lbs at a cost of $884.55 delivered. Not too bad

For the glass shelf inserts, a very loose calculation of 20 sheets of 36'x12'x1/2" frosted tempered glass would be $190.18 each, for a glass total of $3,803.60. Wow, I never would have imagined the cost would be higher for the glass than the steel. And the weight too. 390 lbs for all that glass.

This makes the entire structure (without books, bourbon, wine, bar glassware, decorations, etc) a whopping 692lbs! (i'll have to research the weight of a similar size wood cabinet for comparison)

I'm thinking 52 lag bolts into the wall, and 14 lag bolts into the ceiling.

Am I too ambitious in this endeavor? Am I on the right track with weight calculations? Do I need more or less lag bolts?

 

[Kaizen]

I figured it would be expensive. Try pricing out half inch plexiglass by the sheet. Definitely lighter. Not sure if any cheaper. I think that many lags will weaken the studs. Probably look at structural lags that self drill. With this kind of money I’d open that wall up and add a lot of structure. You are putting wood on it anyway. Much easier to screw into double 2x6 put horizontally between studs. Welding will be the easy part on this project


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[RedTailHawk]

I figured it would be expensive. Try pricing out half inch plexiglass by the sheet. Definitely lighter. Not sure if any cheaper. I think that many lags will weaken the studs. Probably look at structural lags that self drill. With this kind of money I’d open that wall up and add a lot of structure. You are putting wood on it anyway. Much easier to screw into double 2x6 put horizontally between studs. Welding will be the easy part on this project


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After a weekend pondering this project, I’m thinking about breaking up the project. Instead of one large assembly spanning the entire 17’ wall. I’ll break it into two sections. I won’t connect it in the center with square steel shelves but instead I’ll use 1 1/4” slabs of oak cut from my Alaskan chainsaw mill. This will solve a couple issues: 1) it won’t be one giant steel structure 2) I can create the left and right sections at my workshop in WV 3) it’ll be easier to hoist up and install as two separate sections rather than one gigantic structure 4) I can also do the oak slabs for the counter top which will tie together with the two center shelves above the TV.

You guys have been awesome with your feedback and suggestions.


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