Questions/Discussion about Wilton's bullet vises

[Couch Potato]

Hello, I had a question that i wanted to post on here and maybe get a discussion going about Wilton bullet vises.

My question: Are Wilton's top 3 bullet design vises (Combination vises: C1/C2/C3, Machinist vises: 400S/600S/800S and tradesman vises: 1755/1765/1780 all made of ductile iron? The reason I'm asking this is because I was always under the impression and led to believe by the many posts, discussions, threads, and search results, that Wilton's top 3 bullet style vises were all made of ductile iron rating at 60,000 psi. Everytime Wilton vises come up in a discussion, most people seem to agree and say that Wilton's best vises are the Machinist bullet vises and the Commination (C1/clC2/C3) bullet vises, followed by the tradesman or pro mechanics vise, I'm guessing this is due to a few different reasons, the main reasons being: the machinist/combo vises are the only ones that are still being made in USA, the Machinist/Combo vises have the biggest and heaviest vises Wilton has to offer C3/800S, lastly because they are rated at 60,000 psi made of ductile iron (or that's what I and many others were led to believe if the information i gathered is correct, it's possible that I'm mistaken which is why I made this post to hopefully get some feedback and other people's thoughts/opinions on the matter)

The reason I worded my previous sentence that way is because I always thought and was told that Wilton's bullets vises: Machinist/Combo/Tradesman are made of ductile iron rated at 60,000 psi, while the latter may be true, Im led to believe that the part about all of them being made of ductile iron is incorrect. I say that because a few days ago I was browsing Wiotons store on Amazon, and while looking at the different vises which I mentioned in this post, I noticed something unusual (at least to me it was) is that the only vise that was described as being made of ductile iron was the Tradesman out of the 3 bullet variations. This lead me to believe that Amazon was mistaken and put the wrong information in the product specs section, so I decided to go to Wilton's official website and check look at the catalogs for the different vises and all the specifications for those vises, after seeing the same information i decided to go to all the websites that Wilton posted as being authorized dealers and see if the information matched. Well the results i found are:

Almost all authorized dealers websites, Wilton's official website and their vise catalog's, and Wilton's Amazon store, mostly all had matching information stating that the tradesman vise jaw, body, swivel mount all made of ductile iron rated at 60,000 psi, and the machinist/combo vises are made out of cast iron. In the specs/detail area of each website or catalog, they noted that Machinist/combo vises are 30% heavier than other vises and are 60,000 psi, but they don't mention ductile iron, instead they specifically state it's made of cast iron. I'm not sure exactly how they measure the tensile strength of a vise or how the type of metal a vise is made out of correlates to the being rated at higher psi, which is why i wanted to get others thoughts/inputs/knowledge. For example, I know the 745 mechanics vise is rated by Wilton's catalog as 30,000 psi but also it's labeled as being ductile iron in catalogs and descriptions, then the tradesman being 60,000 psi ductile iron, and comb/Machinist vises being 60,000 psi cast iron. Which makes me wonder, does the type of material a vise is made from play a role in the psi rating? Example being: Ductile iron, cast iron, pig iron, wrought iron, white ductile iron, ect. Or does weight also play a part in the psi rating, for example if its more about the weight, then it would make sense that C3/800S vises being the heaviest over 200± pounds, are still rated at 60,000psi even though they are made from cast iron (if fhe information I gathered is correct that is) and is that the reason they chose to make the tradesman completely from ductile iron because it's not as beefy as the others, I have a older made in usa snap-on/Wilton 1780 tradesman that's around 110pounds, but that's nearly double *** less as C2 and even more less then a 800S but they are all rated at 60,000 psi tensile strength. Some other information I can add is that i called Wilton's customer service number and decided to speak to a vise specialist/expert, and when i asked about if all 3 variants were made from ductile iron and rated at 60,000 psi, he kept saying "yeah they are all 60,000 psi and the machinist and combo being made in the US" but when i mentioned that i saw the website and catalog that tradesman is made of ductile iron and the machinist/combo is labeled as cast iron, he assured me that and i quote "they are definitely 60,000 psi, there's no way you could break these, basically indestructible) but never actually answering the actual question about material being used to make the vises. Any information or thoughts would be appreciated and sorry for the long post, I will add some images/screenshots below of the website description about the vises that I took from Wiltons authorized dealers websites, Wilton's catalogs and website, to show examples/info of what I am discussing in this post.



Edit: now that i looked over the catalog pictures and other vise screenshots, I'm having a hard time even find anything that states or shows that c2/c3/600s/800s vises are 60,000psi, for tradesman it clearly states on all sites and catalogs that it's ”60,000 psi tensile streangh jaw, body and base, virtually indestructible and 2× stronger then grey cast iron" for the combo/machinist all it says is " massive cast iron virtually indestructible, weighing 30% more then competitor models" so was 60,000psi and ductile iron both things that were made up about combo/machinist vises because I thought i have seen it detailed as such in different websites and from peoples comments??

 

[F-22]

Only way to know for sure is to grind off a piece of it and look it under a microscope. It is quite easy to see. Ductile iron is a type of cast iron.

Just for understanding - cast iron has a bunch of carbon in it and it forms graphite. In "regular" cast iron (which in other languages is actually called lamellar grey cast iron which more accurately describes what it is), the graphite forms lines (in German it's Lamellengraphit). This is how it looks:



This graphite gives cast iron a relatively big thermal capacity compared to steel and many other metals. Makes it nice for pots and pans as a hot and massive cast iron pan won't cool down when you throw on a raw steak and makes it sear nicely.
The other thing is this structure allows it to dampen vibrations. Those graphite lines soak it in. That's a big reason why all precision machines are made with a cast iron frame (lathes, mills...) and not from welded structural steel tubing.

Downside is those lines form strong "notching effects" in the material. Basically like cutting little microfractures all over it. Makes the material very brittle and easy to form larger cracks that just travel along those lines.

Ductile iron name in most other languages is nodular grey cast iron (Gusseisen mit Kugelgraphit). The additives in it make the graphite form little balls.



Basically this retains a lot of the advantages of the lamellar cast iron, but the balls make far less of a notching effect in it. Maybe the vibration dampening aspect is a bit less pronounced, but still decent. Big downside is it is more pricey and maybe a bit harder to cast (not entirely sure about that).



Of course there are also other types of cast iron and also cast steel (Stahlguß - much more involved process that requires far higher melting temperatures, a lot of "lunker" inclusions, about twice as big shrinkage after casting and a lot of post-processing in the form of heat treatment but such castings have very good properties compared to cast iron - so it is only effectively made in very high end foundries. They are ductile and can be welded). Another well known is white cast iron - not entirely sure what they add to make it white inside, but the iron forms a certain type of very different crystal structure. Think it is used for certain types of plain bearings and for larger castings cause it cools more uniformly while big castings from normal cast iron have big issues with that (a part that cools faster than another part will crack away...). Somewhere between cast iron and cast steel is also malleable iron, which is cast iron that has been annealed kind of like cast steel needs to be. Gets better properties because the internal stress is relieved. Not sure if they use lamellar or nodular iron for malleable iron, but it also might be a completely different mixture intended for it (though I assume it can be done to any cast iron to improve its properties a bit).

 

[john.k]

Ductile iron is made by doping the cast iron melt in a patented process ................white iron has a higher carbon content ,and is often cast so that it chills ............back in the day ,malleable iron was made from white iron by a long heating process..............if you melt (by welding) either malleable or a SG/Ductile iron it reverts to a brittle state beside the weld .................this can be quite dangerous ,as the weld looks to be very good ,but will break without warning under slight load.

 

[john.k]

There have been many serious /fatal accidents caused by arc welding ductile iron .................a more recent one I recall was sg/ductile mountings for hydraulic rams were welded onto a barge ,both mountings broke loose when the front ramp/door was closed ,killling two painters working on the outside of the door.

 

[neophyte]

The better, more expensive, Wilton vises will be made out of a high strength Iron alloy, whether “Ductile” iron, or “Austempered Ductile Iron”, etc.
The lower cost Wilton vises may be made out of other weaker iron alloys.
It should be pointed out that there are multiple major vise manufacturers in China, which are at least a few decades old or older, and these vise manufacturers can and do manufacture vises out of various grades of Ductile Iron, from 30,000psi, to 60,000psi, to regular “cheap” grey iron, and even “ultra high strength” “130,000 PSI Tensile Strength Austempered Ductile Iron”.
These Chinese manufacturers routinely do OEM manufacturing for other Vise and Tool brands.
So the choice to use 60,000psi Ductile Iron has nothing to do with the source country of the vises. (At least as far as Chine or Taiwan).

Wilton likely uses lower strength iron alloys (regular grey iron, and 30,000psi ductile iron) because it increases profit margins a bit, and Wilton can likely get away with the lower cost alloys due to there reputation as a vise manufacturer.

As far as Austempered Ductile Iron goes, this is an extra heat treatment.
It has the disadvantage of making machining much harder, and judging by reviews of the Yost Austempered vises, it also has the possible disadvantage of warping the iron castings, either resulting in way more scrap, the requirement of way better casting engineering, or way more machining of the much harder to machine Austempered castings.
I don’t think most vise manufacturers think it’s worth the extra cost.

As far as Wilton goes, This Catalog;

https://pteus.com/suppliers/catalogs/Wilton-General-Catalog.pdf

Lists the;
-Wilton Combo & Pipe Bullet vises ( USA Made)
-Wilton Machinist Vises (USA Made)
- Wilton Tradesman Vises ( USA Made, although now likely Taiwan made)
-Colombian Combo Pipe and Bench Vises ( USA Made)
-Colombian Machinist Vises( USA Made)
As 60,000psi Ductile Iron.

-The Wilton Mechanics Vises, and Reversible Mechanics vises are listed as 30,000psi ductile iron.

Most of the other vises don’t specify alloy, and should be assumed to be grey iron, although Grainger lists 30,000psi for the iron alloy tensile strength for a number of the Wilton vises were alloy strength isn’t necessarily specified in Wilton literature.

https://www.grainger.com/category/tools/hand-tools/vises-anvils/vises?brandName=WILTON&filters=brandName&categoryIndex=1

 

[Hooterville]

I have a question related to max temperature for a vintage Wilton vise made of "ductile iron"?

Preface: I may soon acquire a "large Wilton vise" that was salvaged after a house or building fire. According to the current owner the vise is seized. I don't know the vise model # yet, only that it is "very heavy". I am hoping it is a 6" jaw width.

Specific question: Generally speaking, what is the (ballpark) max temperature the Wilton vise with ductile iron can withstand without irreparable damage?

My research on temperature during a house/building fires 1,000 F to 2,000 F. Typical 1,500 F.
My research on melting point for cast irons: 2,000 F to 2,200 F.
My research on melting point for wrought irons (or lightly alloyed irons): 2,600 to 2,900 F.

 

[GeoBruin]

I think you'll know pretty quickly if you hit the melting temperature.

What may be harder to know is if the fire got hot enough to anneal the iron. This could theoretically make it more (too) ductile to perform optimally. The annealing temperature range of cast iron is somewhat lower than the melting temperature but varies by specific composition.

The thing is, a big vise like that has a lot of of thermal mass. The amount of time required to anneal it in a proper furnace is something like an hour per inch of section. I have a hard time believing it would have been exposed to those kinds of temperatures and for so long.

In any case, we're probably over thinking it. Get it home, free it up, use it.

 

[Maui]

I have collected and restored vintage American built bench vises for well over a decade, and I have seen some pretty pretty impressive damage on some of the vises that I have comes across over the years. The only brand of vise that I have never seen broken is a Columbian. And I believe that is because they used ductile cast iron in the construction of their vises.

 

[tool_scrounge]

I have collected and restored vintage American built bench vises for well over a decade, and I have seen some pretty pretty impressive damage on some of the vises that I have comes across over the years. The only brand of vise that I have never seen broken is a Columbian. And I believe that is because they used ductile cast iron in the construction of their vises.

Columbian vises tend to be the “ Rodney Dangerfield” of vises - “I get no respect”. The large vise word seems dominated by the “my vise weighs more than your vise”. Being made from malleable high grade cast iron, the 50x and 60x series Columbian vises weighted less for a given size. Columbian did make the 70x and 80x vises of traditional cast iron construction. These weighed ~80% more for an equivalent size but cost about the same per the 1917 catalog. I rarely see them around so they must have not sold well. I like Columbian vises as you can still find them in the used market for a reasonable value.

 

[dscheidt]

As far as Austempered Ductile Iron goes, this is an extra heat treatment.
It has the disadvantage of making machining much harder, and judging by reviews of the Yost Austempered vises, it also has the possible disadvantage of warping the iron castings, either resulting in way more scrap, the requirement of way better casting engineering, or way more machining of the much harder to machine Austempered castings.
I don’t think most vise manufacturers think it’s worth the extra cost.

I just bought a Yost ADI-6 vise. I don't see any issues with it not being square where it needs to be. it's not yet seen any hard use, so I cant' comment about how it's going to hold up. I have no complaints about the forged steel yost vise it's replacing, other than the old one was too small for a few things. it is surprisingly light for the size, and some of the pieces are smaller than you'd expect. I hope that's Yost making good advantage of the material strength. They've been making vises a long time, so they should know what they're doing....

 

[Steve_P]

Dunno about Yost ADI vise reviews stating warping issues; I'd never heard that before, and I research before I buy, so... I just did a search on the Amazon reviews for "warp", "warping", and "warped" and got this.

One review mentions that the gib was warped and rough, limiting fine adjustment until they made it smooth and flat.

OMG, ONE person had an issue out of 562 reviews- meaning many thousands were sold. This is terrible and a major issue!!!! Not.

The ADI vises have 4.5* on Amazon. I have two and they're fine. If you get a bad one, send it back. There are always one-star reviews because something was damaged in shipment, it was a used item and then sold again as new, etc.

Per a few destruction tests, the screw will break before the casting, and it takes a 3' handle to do it.