To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

quick outlet question

rvr6000

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
1,072
Location
St. Paul, MN
I'm finally getting around to adding an outlet for the microwave above the cook stove. When I opened the outlet behind the stove I have this -

12463793335_a49c129e3a_z.jpg

12463780475_0efe251d0d_z.jpg


I'm usually okay when it comes to one hot, one neutral, etc, but I just want to make sure on this one - Can I just feed the new line straight down into this box and attach the neutral to the open post and pigtail the hot with one of the two in there (yellow or gray)?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
Typically you can do what you're asking. But the two hots with one neutral kinda puzzles me. Plus being grey and yellow is not something I'm familiar with. I assume the wire is single conductors in conduit?
 

dtcooper

Active member
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
30
Is one of the hots switched ?
In older homes (mine), the previous owner had broken the hot on several receptacles throughout the house, and fed the top outlet with a switch on the hot leg.. for lamps.
 

Mustang51js

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
1,734
Location
Haskell nj
I would get a testor and check wires,looks to me that the hot and neutrals are reversed,or you have something going on inside the walls. Just because it's white doesn't mean it was hooked up right.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
The white is landed on the silver terminal. Gray is to be used for neutral but I think in this case it was used for a hot.

I would get a testor and check wires,looks to me that the hot and neutrals are reversed,or you have something going on inside the walls. Just because it's white doesn't mean it was hooked up right.
 
Last edited:
OP
R

rvr6000

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
1,072
Location
St. Paul, MN
dtcooper - you just reminded me of something.....a few years back I had an electrician buddy of mine come over and swap out my old fuse box with breaker. When it was all wired up and he was flipping the breakers on there was one breaker that kept popping....turns out the yellow wire coming out of the breaker was already hot! For the time being he just unhooked it until we had time to investigate more. Guess what wire isn't hot anymore when I turn off the breaker to the kitchen....

This one -
12467367224_3e210957f0_z.jpg


So I guess I can go wire nut that one in the outlet box too.
 

pattenp

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
10,175
Location
Virginia - USA
You're better off using the yellow as the hot and cap off the gray on both ends since gray color is reserved for neutral. But, are there other outlets on that circuit?

Edit: If you keep the gray as a hot you should tape it Red or Black on the ends.
 
Last edited:
OP
R

rvr6000

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
1,072
Location
St. Paul, MN
pattenp - Gonna do some investigating tomorrow. Opposite of this wall is the stairs leading up and on the other side of the stairs is the living room. There are two 3-way switches in the living room (one as you enter from the kitchen and one as you enter from the front door) that have never worked since I've lived here. I'm wondering if this isn't going to lead me in that direction.

Still seems strange there isn't another neutral in that line though doesn't it?
 

7th Kahuna

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
1,704
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I don't know what the (former / current / future) intended use of that outlet was when your buddy wired it years ago but it looks to me as though he had intended to separate the top and bottom halves into different circuits.

A similar kitchen application around here is the outlet under the sink. In that case you would have one hot for the garbage disposal and a second hot for the dishwasher, each served by a single neutral as you have in your box. In your situation your first clue may be the tag on the unused breaker (if there is one, a tag that is).

Now it is possible that one or the other of the 'hots' is common to other outlets in the area. In other words each half of that outlet doesn't necessarily have to have a circuit breaker that is unique to it. In my kitchen example, I believe that garbage disposals typically have their own circuit, while the dishwasher often shares a circuit with other kitchen appliances (or maybe the other way around??).

In such an installation, the electrician needs to remember to break out the jumper on the side of the outlet. Failure to do so results in just the situation you described where the breaker trips while the wire remains hot, even while disconnected.

The jumper is visible on the side of the outlet between the two screws. Grabbed with a pair of pliers, a couple wiggles back and forth and it will break free. For two circuits sharing a neutral, remove only the hot (positive) jumper, for two circuits supplied with unique neutrals (rare in my experience) remove both the brass (hot) jumper and nickle (neutral) jumper.

Once you identify the reason for the extra circuit, then you will know which half of the outlet you should pull your new line off of. Also, once you break out that jumper (if there is a reason to do so) then you will be able to properly connect the line at the breaker as was originally intended.

It is very possible that the extra circuit was intended for the microwave. In that case, remove it from the existing outlet, connect it to the line running out to the new outlet and then reconnect it at the breaker. Ideally in that case you should run a new neutral back to the panel but you could get away with tying it into the existing outlet. It wouldn't be my choice but it would work.
 
Last edited:

Mustang51js

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
1,734
Location
Haskell nj
The white is landed on the silver terminal. Gray is to be used for neutral but I think in this case it was used for a hot.

I just said that because there has been many times where people replace old two prong outlets and just put the wires on the same side as they pulled the outlet out so all the outlets are reversed polarity when the home inspector comes. But looking at the panel box now it seems it was a 3 wire ran to the box which then he could have that new outlet on a separate circuit. Btw I've never seen a yellow wire in a romex lol.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

7th Kahuna

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
1,704
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I should also mention that I have seen gray run as a hot before. Generally in my world, if it's white, it's neutral, everything else (unfortunately periodically green as well :shocking:) is potentially hot. Couldn't hurt to hit the gray wire with a red permanent marker just the same. Better safe than sorry. That could be said for all the work in this box. It looks simple enough to me but if you have any concerns, give your buddy a call.
 
Last edited:

Dakota00

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Woodbridge, Ontario
This was a common practice for the homes built in my area. The kitchen outlets on top of the counter would have 3 wires in the outlet box (white, red and black) So the outlet would have 2 hots shared with 1 neutral. The brass jumper on the outlet would be broken, so that the 2 individual outlet would have their own 15 amp dedicated circuit.
Reason for this, was for running high powered appliances at the same time without tripping the breaker.

In the electrical panel those double fed outlets would share a double pole 15amp breaker.
 

schor

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
531
Location
Ajax, Ontario
You have a split plug which is/should be common in kitchens. Google split plug.

The colors are not typical, usually black white and red. Never seen yellow, white and grey before.

The yellow and grey would be hot and white the neutral.

Since this is a plug behind the stove I would just replace the plug with one that is not a split plug (don't break the tab) because your probably not loading that plug too much.

Run your new wire down to the box, connect the new white and a pigtail to the existing white, marret it and connect the pigtail to the white on the outlet. now take the black from the new wire and marret it to the yellow, then connect the grey to the plug behind the stove.

You now have 2, non-split plugs, each on a different circuit.

I am not an electrician, I would get it checks by an electrician so your not voiding any insurances. Not sure if you need an inspection for this type of work in your area.
 
Last edited:

volleyball

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
4,127
Location
NY, not NYC
There should have the tab between the yellow and grey wires removed at the receptacle. Like they do when you have a switched outlet like in the living room or bedroom. This will give you two circuits. The microwave should be on a circuit by itself.
I think the colors are throwing you off. Green for ground, white for neutral and other colors for hot.
Make sure the grey wire is not tied to the neutral bar. That could explain the breaker pop when the yellow was energized.
 

bczygan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,002
Location
DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
STOP!!!

A microwave must be on it's own separate circuit!!!

Wire must run all the way back to the panel and it's own breaker. And circuit must be GFCI protected by either the outlet or breaker.

AND it needs to be a 20 amp circuit!
 
Last edited:

dledinger

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
345
pattenp - Gonna do some investigating tomorrow. Opposite of this wall is the stairs leading up and on the other side of the stairs is the living room. There are two 3-way switches in the living room (one as you enter from the kitchen and one as you enter from the front door) that have never worked since I've lived here. I'm wondering if this isn't going to lead me in that direction.

Still seems strange there isn't another neutral in that line though doesn't it?

I bet the receptacle is split wired and served by one of those switches.

As stated above - redesignate the gray with proper marking, and put the Microwave on its own 20A circuit.
 

goodwrench

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
173
my only question would be is there any thing else on either one of those wires? like outlets lights etc?? cause say the power is coming in on the gray and going out the yellow, if there is anything else on the yellow and you remove it From the outlet you might find some thing else not working. makes me wonder how it was wired before the fuse panel was switched out? basically figure out where the wires run and what else they might feed. if the yellow is home run from the breaker box to that outlet, maybe use that wire for your new outlet, but not sure what u would use for a neutral unless u run one, then might as well run a whole new wire. I would defineately investigate though and see where and how the wires run. that one neutral is kinda strange. someone might have repurposed a 220 circuit or something.

later!!! Chris
 
OP
R

rvr6000

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
1,072
Location
St. Paul, MN
What are my options for using that yellow wire for a new microwave circuit (assuming nothing else is on it) and sharing that neutral? Where the stove is it wouldn't be too difficult to run a whole new line but wondering if this was possible. Thanks for all the help.
 

PRH44

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
563
Location
Indiana
First off the color code for a neutral is white or grey never a phase. Typically in a three phase applications grey and white are used to distinguish between multiple systems on the same premises (NEC requirement). A popular way of accomplishing this is as follows
480/277 volt 3 phase 4 wire
A phase = brown
B phase= yellow
C phase= orange
Neutral = grey

208/120 volt 3 phase 4 wire
A phase= Black
B phase= Red
C phase= blue
Neutral = white

Typical residential
120/240
L1=Black
L2=Red
neutral = white
Some will use grey as a neutral in 120/240 or 208 volt systems, however it should never be used as a phase wire.
It appears you might have a conduit or some other raceway to that box and individual wires pulled to it? If so you have options.
 

7th Kahuna

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
1,704
Location
Los Angeles, CA
What are my options for using that yellow wire for a new microwave circuit (assuming nothing else is on it) and sharing that neutral? Where the stove is it wouldn't be too difficult to run a whole new line but wondering if this was possible. Thanks for all the help.

That's what I would be looking at. Shouldn't be too hard to determine if it is serving anything else. I would still try to run another neutral back to the panel if possible.
 

schor

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
531
Location
Ajax, Ontario
What are my options for using that yellow wire for a new microwave circuit (assuming nothing else is on it) and sharing that neutral? Where the stove is it wouldn't be too difficult to run a whole new line but wondering if this was possible. Thanks for all the help.

I think that is what I layed out in my post. But I'd sstill have everything checked by an electrician.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom