Quick roofing question...

[Maxtork]

Well I bought my shingles today so I can start roofing my garage. I think I have a reasonable handle on things but I have a question about the starter row of shingles. I am using the 3D architectural shingles for the roof but I bought some flat 3 tabs for the starter strips. Do you need to cut the tabs off the starter shingles or can you use them whole? I looked all over the internet and I have seen it done and described both ways. I guess conventional wisdom would have you trim the tabs off so you only have enough there to fill in under the first row of standard shingles where they would normally overlap the next course below. I'm leaning towards doing it this way but I wanted to ask and see if I am missing anything that might change my mind.

Any thoughts?

Max

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

The reason for cutting off the tabs is so the glue strip grabs the next row of shingles. I would also use black-jack or similar tar under the starter strip.

Richard

 

[Maxtork]

Do you just run a bead along the tar paper just in from the drip edge? Seems reasonable to get the starter row to stick down well. Then the glue on each row of shingles will stick down each row above.

Thanks
Max

 

[CNGsaves]

Put your starter row on backwards so the full portion of shingle is down at dripedge. You just don't want water to be able to drop through gaps down directly onto tar paper. Also make sure you overhang the shingle over drip edge a smidge.

Within 10 yrs a hailstorm or tornado will come through and trash that roof so just do it right now so no water leaks until then !!

 

[Maxtork]

Put your starter row on backwards so the full portion of shingle is down at dripedge. You just don't want water to be able to drop through gaps down directly onto tar paper. Also make sure you overhang the shingle over drip edge a smidge.

Within 10 yrs a hailstorm or tornado will come through and trash that roof so just do it right now so no water leaks until then !!

CNG, I was planning on running the starters inverted but do you leave the tabs on or cut them off? If they are still on the first row of regular shingles will not just overlap the starter row but will be completely on top.

Thanks
Max

 

[CNGsaves]

Been roofing houses for 30+ yrs with my carpenter brother and we just install "starter" row (ie either cheap 3 tab or actual "starter" shingles from manufacturer) upside down, snap our chalk lines, and start installing normal shingles.

We always cut off 4", 8" and 12" for normal shingles which work out well to stagger the joints and make roof look nice. Thus, starter/3 tab backwards first (cut in half to stagger joints), then full shingle, then 4" cutoff shingle, then 8" cutoff shingle, and last 12" cutoff shingle. Repeat that routine (full, 4" cutoff, 8" cutoff, 12" cutoff) all the way up house.

Save those scraps and use where possible in the valleys or elsewhere.

Your leaks will be at holes in roof like vent pipes, chimney flues, etc so use your tar bucket there.

 

[NoSloCoupes]

I like to cut about 1/2" below the sealing strip on the 3 tab shingles, then install flush-1/2" within edge of ODE. I also allow 1/4"-1/2" overhang of the architectural over the drip edge on bottom and 1/4" on eaves. Depending on which shingle you are using (i prefer Owens Corning Duration as they SEAL like crazy), you get a good seal of the arch. shingle and starter sealant strip. Don't cut your starter row too short either or it won't be tall enough to seal **** joints of first run of the arch. shingle.

Don't rule out an ice/water barrier either...don't know how the weather gets down there.

 

[wniemann]

We generally used starter strips, but when we did use 3 tabs for starter we did it like NoSlo suggested. Also remember to cut a few inches off the first starter strip so it doesn't line up with the first real shingle

 

[owenst7]

Been roofing houses for 30+ yrs with my carpenter brother and we just install "starter" row (ie either cheap 3 tab or actual "starter" shingles from manufacturer) upside down, snap our chalk lines, and start installing normal shingles.

We always cut off 4", 8" and 12" for normal shingles which work out well to stagger the joints and make roof look nice. Thus, starter/3 tab backwards first, then full shingle, then 4" cutoff shingle, then 8" cutoff shingle, and last 12" cutoff shingle. Repeat that routine (full, 4" cutoff, 8" cutoff, 12" cutoff) all the way up house.

Save those scraps and use where possible in the valleys or elsewhere.

Your leaks will be at holes in roof like vent pipes, chimney flues, etc so use your tar bucket there.

This. Just run a 3 tab upside down overhung in to your first knuckle of your left index finger. We only ever bought bleeder if it was a really large job and there was a significant money savings. No reason to waste money on the time to cut the tabs off, they won't hurt anything.

Don't forget to stagger your drip edge too. Might want to look up a video on how to cut your drip edge for the corners/ridge.

 

[Big Bad Dad]

Read the instructions from the manufacturer. That is the way to NOT void your warranty when they blow off. You want the glue strip near the bottom of the first run of whole shingles. The method of just turning a 3 tab upside down is not correct, but it seems like a lot of Roofers do it that way.

 

[owenst7]

Read the instructions from the manufacturer. That is the way to NOT void your warranty when they blow off. You want the glue strip near the bottom of the first run of whole shingles. The method of just turning a 3 tab upside down is not correct, but it seems like a lot of Roofers do it that way.

My dad is an ex roofing contractor that now works for Malarkey, they are fine with that method. I can't speak for Corning or any others though, as Malarkey was all we ever installed. All bleeder strip is is a standard shingle without the tabs. We used 3 tabs most of the time since we needed it for hip and ridge. Would have been silly to have three types of bundles in the truck for one small residential job.

Further, I have yet to see a quality modern shingle fail under warranty when it was properly installed. Certainly never seen them blow off, even with 100+ mph winds.

 

[Doug B]

... I have a question about the starter row of shingles.....I guess conventional wisdom would have you trim the tabs off so you only have enough there to fill in under the first row of standard shingles where they would normally overlap the next course below. I'm leaning towards doing it this way but I wanted to ask and see if I am missing anything that might change my mind.

Any thoughts?

Max

Do it this way,but for the reason of having the tar strip near the bottom to seal the first course of shingles.Nail the starter course just above the tar strip and you won't need to seal the starter strip down with blackjack.

Don't let the shingles hang over the dripedge, they will only break off if you ever need to put a ladder up on the roof. Let the dripedge do its job

Post up pics when you get the job started!

 

[MustangRick]

When I was pricing materials, the roll of starter strip was actually cheaper then buying the 3 tab shingles to cut up.

 

[owenst7]

Do it this way,but for the reason of having the tar strip near the bottom to seal the first course of shingles.Nail the starter course just above the tar strip and you won't need to seal the starter strip down with blackjack.

Don't let the shingles hang over the dripedge, they will only break off if you ever need to put a ladder up on the roof. Let the dripedge do its job

Post up pics when you get the job started!

The overhang is spec and keeps water from getting behind the drip edge from adhesion. I have replaced rotted fascia from that. I don't think I ever broke a shingle from that that wasn't hung over too far and wasn't old and brittle anyway.

When I was pricing materials, the roll of starter strip was actually cheaper then buying the 3 tab shingles to cut up.

It definitely is, it's about half the material. The only way it is cheaper to use 3 tab is if you don't need full bundles or if you're on the clock on a small job. If you're really pinching pennies, the cut tabs from the bleeder could be used as hip/ridge ends. Sometimes if you're new, cutting a tab off and using it as a gauge for your stagger can be helpful too.

 

[Zeke]

The overhang is spec and keeps water from getting behind the drop edge from adhesion. I have replaced rotted fascia from that. I don't think I ever broke a shingle from that that wasn't hung over too far and wasn't old and brittle anyway.

It definitely is, it's about half the material. The only way it is cheaper to use 3 tab is if you don't need full bundles or if you're on the clock on a small job.

I'm with you. If you're breaking shingles that are hung out a 1/2 or less, you are leaning the ladder too much or the shingles are on their last legs. Use rags tied to the ladder if you can't figure out how to not damage the edge. I can lean a ladder against a gutter and not hurt it because I put them up at the correct angle.

 

[Maxtork]

Thanks Guys,

I'm going to go play around with it today and see what I can do. It seems like as with everything else, there is more than one way to do it. I am running the plastic T shaped drip edge so it doesn't extend down the fascia very much. For this reason I will probably overhang the starter strip a bit to keep water from running down across the fascia. I am going to lay out a few shingles as a test and make sure that using whole 3 tabs doesn't leave a funky ridge where the first course of arch shingles overlaps. If not I will run them whole except for the end of the course where I will cut them off as described above to keep the **** joints from each course from lining up. If it does leave a funny ridge I will cut the tabs off just below the sealing strip. I would rather not have to split them as it is just extra work but I do want to do this right the first time. Either way I will run the starter row inverted so the sealing strip will be in the right place to glue the arch shingles down. I did look at the manufacturers website and instructions and it really didn't give too much detail other than a 1/4" to 3/4" overhang.

Last question...I think someone above mentioned overhanging the first row of arch shingles slightly beyond the starter strip. Is this common or do most folks line up both rows at the bottom edge?

Thanks for all the help!

Max

 

[CNGsaves]

I'm with you. If you're breaking shingles that are hung out a 1/2 or less, you are leaning the ladder too much or the shingles are on their last legs. Use rags tied to the ladder if you can't figure out how to not damage the edge. I can lean a ladder against a gutter and not hurt it because I put them up at the correct angle.

^ ^ Exactly. Shingle itself needs overhang of 1/2" over the dripedge. We always do starter row the same 1/2" over dripedge and line everything up.

Most every house has gutters, so you'll lean ladder against them but do so straddling the attachment nail or long screw that holds gutter up.

Heck, I've rigged up 2x4's that drop into gutter (ie U shape over top lip of gutter) so that ladder is actually pushing against the house inside gutter so that gutter did not have any pressure against them from ladder (thus no way ladder could crush gutter).

 

[fury9]

If you use the correct flashing for vent pipes,etc.. There is no need to get out the tar bucket.

 

[owenst7]

I'm with you. If you're breaking shingles that are hung out a 1/2 or less, you are leaning the ladder too much or the shingles are on their last legs. Use rags tied to the ladder if you can't figure out how to not damage the edge. I can lean a ladder against a gutter and not hurt it because I put them up at the correct angle.

Or maybe you're just a skinny guy like me lol. Although, I never broke shingles back when we packed bundles up on our shoulders either.

 

[Maxtork]

Well for better or for worse I got started. I spent awhile modifying my redneck truss lift to hoist up bundles of shingles because I'm waaaaay to lazy to haul them up by hand. It still needs some tweaking but it should work. I got one bundle of starter shingles laid. I let them overhang the edges by about 3/4" and then started laying the arch shingles directly over top. The edges look a little funky but that's more due to the crappy plastic drip edge. I'm really considering pulling it off and using the metal stuff. I don;t know since the gutters should cover a lot of that when they go up.

Anyways I got one bundle of arch shingles up before I ran out of daylight. I am pretty happy with how well the lines are staying straight. I'll try to do some more tomorrow when I get home from work. As you can probably guess I'm not the fastest roofer in the world but That's OK as long as it looks good when it is done. Here are a couple pics.....promise not to laugh!






Max

 

[owenst7]

Well for better or for worse I got started. I spent awhile modifying my redneck truss lift to hoist up bundles of shingles because I'm waaaaay to lazy to haul them up by hand. It still needs some tweaking but it should work. I got one bundle of starter shingles laid. I let them overhang the edges by about 3/4" and then started laying the arch shingles directly over top. The edges look a little funky but that's more due to the crappy plastic drip edge. I'm really considering pulling it off and using the metal stuff. I don;t know since the gutters should cover a lot of that when they go up.

Anyways I got one bundle of arch shingles up before I ran out of daylight. I am pretty happy with how well the lines are staying straight. I'll try to do some more tomorrow when I get home from work. As you can probably guess I'm not the fastest roofer in the world but That's OK as long as it looks good when it is done. Here are a couple pics.....promise not to laugh!






Max

You should fix your stagger. They need to be about half the height of of the shingle. They will leak at the keyways if you don't. The bleeder needs to be staggered from the first row this way too.

Easy way to make a habit of this is to start your bleeder as a half shingle or some other partial length. Nail the other half in place on the perimeter above you so you don't have to pick it up twice. Now, cut a book of "starter". Cut the tab off a three tab for a gauge if you can't eyeball 7 7/8". Take a full shingle and cut off a 7 7/8" section. Pick up the longer section with your left hand and lay it under the short section, flush to the left edge. Cut an additional 7 7/8" off now. Repeat. If you add a full shingle to the pile, you will now have a "book" of all the lengths needed to set the stagger anywhere, in order. Lay this book down approx. every row and a half of underlayment, and you will start each row with the next "start". You won't have to set down your coil nailer or take the shingles off your knee to use your knife because you can just reach for the next one, and you won't forget to maintain your stagger because your starts will be in the way whenever you get to the top of your run and start a new row.

Chalk lines frequently down from the ridge to maintain square. If you're way off, drop a quarter inch or so at a time so its not obvious. Keep in mind that framers rarely make the roof square in the first place, so as a roofer installing a visible product, you may be required to work around that to make it look correct. A square shingle job of a trapezoidal roof will end up losing a run of shingles from one end to the other and be really obvious.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . More pictures close-up for those first few rows.

Not sure what all OwenST7 is trying to say . . . I think it has to do with Left-to-Right stagger but not sure.

OP, did you start with full shingle, next row up 4" cutooff, then next row up 8" cutoff . . . etc, etc. or something similar ??

 

[Maxtork]

Hey Guys,

I assume Owens is talking about the left to right stagger as well to keep the split lines between rows from lining up. That is exactly what I did. I staggered the starter row so the first course would run across the seams between the starter shingles. Then I followed the instructions on the arch shingle package and started my first course with a full shingle, then second with 5" cut off then 10" cut off. So there shouldn't be any issues with the seams lining up. It is too dark out to get pictures tonight but
I will try to take a few more tomorrow.

I did chalk a line to set my first row straight but I went off the eave edge not the ridge. I will measure down tomorrow and make sure I don't lose a row on my way up. I set the trusses myself and I know they are pretty square but I would rather check it now then find out I'm wrong later.

Thanks Guys

Max

 

[Maxtork]

Hey Guys,

Just thought I would share a quick picture now that I have it all done..mostly. I managed to get everything up and my lines are straight and it looks pretty good. I still have to trim the rake edges and put up the ridge shingles and ridge vents. Thanks for all the advice and tips. It really did help. anyone have any tips for ridge shingles and vents?





Max

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Ridge vent:
GAF Cobra Snow Country Rigid Ridge Vent

Ridge cap:
GAF Timbertex Ridge Cap shingles

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

On the eave you should be using a Gutter Apron flashing.
On the rake you use Drip Edge flashing

 

[Maxtork]

Thanks Scott,

Unfortunately I already have 3 tab shingles for the ridge as well as the vents already. I already have the drip edge installed so I can't really change that now. Maybe for the next roof...

Max

 

[Maxtork]

Hey All,

One more quick question. I went to dry fir the ridge vent and I found that it is just a bit too narrow as the tar strip of the top course of shingles lies just outside the ridge vent. Is this ok or do I need to put another row of shingles? If so should I use 3 tabs or arch shingles? Heres a pic so you can see what I am talking about.



Thanks
Max

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Do 1 more course of architectural shingles and then trim at the ridge as needed, leaving a 2" gap for air to escape.
Then put your ridge vent to overlap them.

 

[readhead]

One more of arch on each side.

 

[Maxtork]

Thanks Guys...I was afraid you were going to say that. I guess I need to go get another bundle of shingles as I used every last one to get up to where it is now. Oh well.

So when installing the last course should I cut each shingle so it just comes to the peak? I will have a 42 ft ridge line and only 20ft of vent so the ends will have 3 tab ridge shingles over them.

Thanks
Max

 

[readhead]

Cut the shingles back to the gap in the sheeting. All the ridge shingles should be the same type. Why only 20' of ridge vent?

 

[Maxtork]

Cut the shingles back to the gap in the sheeting. All the ridge shingles should be the same type. Why only 20' of ridge vent?

Ok I will cut them back to the sheathing gap. I probably need to cut the gap a bit wider as I only have about 1 1/2" right now. I could run ridge vent full length but I made the mistake of taking my wife to the store with me when I bout the vents. She of course had to research the hell out of it on her phone and decided that I only needed 20 ft worth for proper ventilation as per the manufacturer recommendation. I'm all about overkill and she is all about cheap!

Thanks for the help
Max

 

[dledinger]

I like the glue edge right up front, so I either cut off the 3 tabs or use starter. I also stagger a lot more. I do the architchtural shingles the same way as a three tab; full shingle, 5/6, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, 1/6 and repeat the whole way to the ridge.

 

[readhead]

1 1/2" gap is ok. I prefer to run the vent the full length so it doesn't look like a lump on the roof.

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

1 1/2" gap is ok. I prefer to run the vent the full length so it doesn't look like a lump on the roof.

Yep
Looks goofy with ridge vent only in the middle
Run it end to end, stopping maybe 6" or a foot from the end.
Do the vent cut two feet shorter to prevent wind driven rain from entering thru the ends.
Per the GAF Field Installation Guide

Your 3 tab shingles will probably have a different color than your architectural shingles even if the name on the package is the same.