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Quick shed truss question

turbo6justin

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Milwaukee area, WI
I am working on a shed as a present to my garage and have a quick question on the trusss. I have them up and built and was happy on paper but am wondering if I should add an additional brace either side to side as in the blue line or 2 diagonals as the green lines are drawn or third option is red which would probably work just as well and be less intrusive. I am worried about the base of the truss having a tendency to move outward on the top plate (top of the wall section) when under load. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here just strengthen it up a bit if necessary. Either one would still give me enough head room but the green would certainly be more out of the way and visually would be much better with the door and window red even more so. Do I even need the additional support? Many thanks.


shedtruss3.jpg
 
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irishtom

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t6j,
I would have added plywood gusset plates at the red lines, but that's just me.
More important, I would add tie down straps where the joists meet the double sill plate.
Tom
 

stingry

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Technically you do not have a truss system, just rafters with collar ties. The upper rafters are triangulated by the collar ties. You are correct in being worried about the the top plate pushing out. The weak part of your rafter system is where the upper rafters meet the lower rafters. As a load is applied to the upper section, the joint between the uppers and lowers is going to try to straighten out and force the sidewalls out. Either the red or green option will triangulate this joint and prevent this from happening. A plywood gusset as mentioned above would do the same thing. I would add the green braces.

Cheers
Steve
 

5lima30

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Looks good! I agree, a combination of hurricane ties and 2x for your blue lines you should be good to go. The 2x could also used for light overhead storage.
 

Doug B

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+1 on what Irishtom said....but let me understand something. The shed is a present for your garage? Like a gift?
 
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turbo6justin

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Many thanks so far keep the opinions coming.

Yes I consider the shed a present for the garage. The garage is far from full but there is a lot of stuff like lawn mower, snowblower, engine lift, engines, trannys, steel, yeard stuff, just stuff that doesn't need to be in there all the time that can go in a shed.

And sorry about the truss comment, yes they are rafters. I have been primarily an engine/car guy and construction is sort of new to me. I always said there were two types of people metal people and wood people, I am a metal person, a good bit of the rest of my family owns and operates a building supply, contracting business, building houses, they are wood people. Anway, the most confusing thing about construction as I am learning as I go is all the terminology, there is a name for everything of course.
 

Doug B

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I always said there were two types of people metal people and wood people, I am a metal person....

I hear ya on this one.I am a wood person trying to be a metal person(building a 30 Ford coupe hot rod).The garage build was way easier than the car.

My garages birthday is coming up....maybe I should get it something....
 

bczygan

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Quite interesting. Did you have plans or just winged it? What are the dimensions? What are the code requirements for wind and snow loads? What roof deck and shingles will be used? Will anything be suspended from the roof structure (Insulation, drywall, lighting, storage? What are the member sizes? What species and grade of wood? What fastening methods are used? What is the ridge beam material and size and span? What supports the ridge beam at each end?

Each connection acts as a hinge. Connections must resist this load with a safety factor. Was this engineered by anyone? Some quick answers:
I don't see any gusset plates at the ridge or at the connection of the two rafters on each side. These, and the way they are fastened to the rafters must be engineered. The rafter tails push the walls outwards. There are no methods of resisting this outward force such as joists.
The members appear beefy, but without doing calculations you don't know what the resistance to shear or other kinds of loads will be.

Bill
 
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turbo6justin

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I take all criticism as constructive but yes I did design this for the most part by myself. I looked at dozes of other designs, took lots of pictures and designed with their strengths in mind and worked around their areas that I saw as week. "Quite interesting" will make me a little defensive though.

I will defend the home designer here and say that I have never called Chrysler, Toyota, Cummins, GM, or anyone else when I am going to drastically modify a vehicle either. Do we all call an engineer when we build a work bench or a vice stand?

That being said it is 12' x 14' with a peak height of 9.5'. The requirements for the permit was pretty lax at best. Submit plan to the county 2 people look at it and and I have a permit. The sheething will be 1/2" OSB with arcitectual shingles. Nothing really to mention that will be hung, a few 4' lights (10lb) and a weed eater because they are always in the way. No insulation or drywall. The decking and shingles will weigh nearly as much as any snow load I figured 6-800lbs for the roof itself and 18" of snow over that area would be less than 1000lbs IF we ever had 18" of snow. That is still less than 11lb per square foot. All construction is 2x4 stud or better grade and is what, spruce/pine/fir? Everything is 16" OC, the ridge is 14'. 3.5" ring shank nails for the framing and 2.5" for the sheething with screws mixed in where a nail gun is hard to get in place.

I understand your hinge analogy and that is what I am trying to address. I believe both green and red will address this tendency and I believe green would be better. It will however create less head room near the walls so is less desirable.
 

stingry

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Quite interesting. Did you have plans or just winged it? What are the dimensions? What are the code requirements for wind and snow loads? What roof deck and shingles will be used? Will anything be suspended from the roof structure (Insulation, drywall, lighting, storage? What are the member sizes? What species and grade of wood? What fastening methods are used? What is the ridge beam material and size and span? What supports the ridge beam at each end?

Each connection acts as a hinge. Connections must resist this load with a safety factor. Was this engineered by anyone? Some quick answers:
I don't see any gusset plates at the ridge or at the connection of the two rafters on each side. These, and the way they are fastened to the rafters must be engineered. The rafter tails push the walls outwards. There are no methods of resisting this outward force such as joists.
The members appear beefy, but without doing calculations you don't know what the resistance to shear or other kinds of loads will be.

Bill

GOOD GRIEF!!!! IT'S JUST A SHED!!!

Add the green members, glue and nail them and you will be fine.
 
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trbomax

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Your roof loading numbers are not even close. Where we are is about as far north as you. In Antrim county the engineered snow load must be 70 psf. The dead load is assumed to be 20psf,leaveing 50psf for snow load.All this being said,I have seen approved roof structures cave in with 32" of snow.8" of snow is considered to be 1" of water,so useing that number, your 18" of snow would weigh the same as 2" of water + the 20psf for decking and roofing,considerably more than your calculations.Just my 02

edit) I would want 5/8 ply gussets on each side of all those joints extending UNDER those 2x fillers you have between the rafters,ring shank nailed and glued.There should also be a minimum of 1 - 2x purlins on the underside of each section (4 total) run diagonally for shear.The hurricane tie downs are code just about everywhere.
 
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nissan_crawler

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Quite interesting. Did you have plans or just winged it? What are the dimensions? What are the code requirements for wind and snow loads? What roof deck and shingles will be used? Will anything be suspended from the roof structure (Insulation, drywall, lighting, storage? What are the member sizes? What species and grade of wood? What fastening methods are used? What is the ridge beam material and size and span? What supports the ridge beam at each end?

Each connection acts as a hinge. Connections must resist this load with a safety factor. Was this engineered by anyone? Some quick answers:
I don't see any gusset plates at the ridge or at the connection of the two rafters on each side. These, and the way they are fastened to the rafters must be engineered. The rafter tails push the walls outwards. There are no methods of resisting this outward force such as joists.
The members appear beefy, but without doing calculations you don't know what the resistance to shear or other kinds of loads will be.

Bill

You have got to be f'ing kidding me. It's a damn shed, not the taj mahal. My HF portable garage that I use for a shed is going on 8 years now, and isn't nearly half as strong as that thing, and has sat through 70mph winds.

Throw the green supports in and move on with life.

As for snow, anybody that lets snow build up on their roof like that is a ***** to start with. they make this wonderful little thing called a roof rake that takes the snow off so you don't get ice dams built up, and have roof leaks (or cave-ins).
 

trbomax

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You have obviously never lived or even visited the NW lower mich snow belt.We can get 32" in 2 days here.Then the bottom melting glues it down,the wind rows it up deeper in valeys. We must all be morons for liveing here because there is no way all that snow gets cleaned off the same day! The most Ive ever had on any of my roofs was 36" 2 yrs ago.Multiple freeze downs (2"ice,then 6" snow,another 3" ice,more snow........)You dont rake that off with one of those roof rakes from 2 stories up on a roof with a 40' run and a 4 or 5/12 pitch.
 
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turbo6justin

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I like overbuilt as much as the next guy and take advice pretty well, but I am tending to agree with nissan and stingry. It is just a shed. As it sits now it is at least as strong as 95% of the garages built around here including mine. Heck try to find a lumber yard that builds sheds on 16" centers. My calculations for the weight of snow are not that far off. Just for reference if we ever get 18" of snow it is going to be light stuff and closer to 12" for each inch of equivalent water and I figured it on the center part of the roof. Not a lot of snow is going to accumulate on a 60 deg slope on the sides. If we ever got more than that you had better believe I would be thinking about breaking out the ole roof rake.

I suppose I could pack it full to the roof with lumber that way it would never have a problem. Then I could build a 24" thick cement bomb shelter next to it for the lawn mower.:)

Unless I hear differently, I am going with the green.
 

nissan_crawler

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You have obviously never lived or even visited the NW lower mich snow belt.We can get 32" in 2 days here.Then the bottom melting glues it down,the wind rows it up deeper in valeys. We must all be morons for liveing here because there is no way all that snow gets cleaned off the same day! The most Ive ever had on any of my roofs was 36" 2 yrs ago.Multiple freeze downs (2"ice,then 6" snow,another 3" ice,more snow........)You dont rake that off with one of those roof rakes from 2 stories up on a roof with a 40' run and a 4 or 5/12 pitch.

No, I lived in North Dakota. My parents live in Minneapolis. Watch the news lately? Dad was out in the storm raking the snow off before it rained. It's easier that way than if you let multiple layers pile up. We did the shed, too.

I want pics of this 2 story garden shed with a 40' run. Yeah, I know. You were talking about your HOUSE. That's my point, this is a freaking 9' high SHED. Oh, and on multiple story roofs, it's done with steamers, or a ladder with a rake.
 

bczygan

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I take all criticism as constructive but yes I did design this for the most part by myself. I looked at dozes of other designs, took lots of pictures and designed with their strengths in mind and worked around their areas that I saw as week. "Quite interesting" will make me a little defensive though.

I will defend the home designer here and say that I have never called Chrysler, Toyota, Cummins, GM, or anyone else when I am going to drastically modify a vehicle either. Do we all call an engineer when we build a work bench or a vice stand?

That being said it is 12' x 14' with a peak height of 9.5'. The requirements for the permit was pretty lax at best. Submit plan to the county 2 people look at it and and I have a permit. The sheething will be 1/2" OSB with arcitectual shingles. Nothing really to mention that will be hung, a few 4' lights (10lb) and a weed eater because they are always in the way. No insulation or drywall. The decking and shingles will weigh nearly as much as any snow load I figured 6-800lbs for the roof itself and 18" of snow over that area would be less than 1000lbs IF we ever had 18" of snow. That is still less than 11lb per square foot. All construction is 2x4 stud or better grade and is what, spruce/pine/fir? Everything is 16" OC, the ridge is 14'. 3.5" ring shank nails for the framing and 2.5" for the sheething with screws mixed in where a nail gun is hard to get in place.

I understand your hinge analogy and that is what I am trying to address. I believe both green and red will address this tendency and I believe green would be better. It will however create less head room near the walls so is less desirable.

Ok,
Now I understand more of the parameters. Here's what I would do.:

Provide more than just a couple of nails as fasteners on each end of each collar tie.
Create a plywood gusset at each connection between upper and lower rafters. Glue and fasten with numerous ring shank nails or screws.
Install metal plates at lower rafter tails.

The first item will assure the collar ties do their job and triangulate the upper rafters into a truss.
The second will keep that joint from rotating by triangulating the two rafters into a truss.
The third will prevent uplift of the roof in high winds by suction.

It's just a shed, but structure is structure. Small details like fasteners can have a large result. Bridges fail from one connection. Your shed probably won't fall down, but I've seen many garages built with builders "rule of thumb" that have sway backed roofs and bowed out side walls. This is especially true in hip roofed and gambrel roofed structures with no or few ceiling joists. A lot of them eventually end up with steel cables keeping them from collapsing. The purpose of engineering is to know that the result will perform as expected. Building codes design for loads that you will probably never see with a safety factor just to be safe.

No, the above suggestions were not engineered. They come from experience based on the spans and sizes you gave me and will assure that the structure won't deflect too much.
A gambrel is a difficult beast to properly design. The almost flat upper portion holds a lot of snow. The connections are critical and the lower rafter portion can easily be under sized. The collar ties and any gussets are the only thing triangulating it and preventing the tail of the rafters from thrusting the top of the wall out.
One way to help with a gambrel is to provide a ridge beam rather than just a ridge board, and allow this to support half the roof loads. These loads then need to be carried down to the floor on columns at each end. The rafter to rafter connection and some out thrust still need to be accounted for though.
 

Daniel Dudley

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Put a 2x6 on the red or green lines. Use construction adhesive and at least five nails per side. Put more nails in the collar ties, or lower them .

Move on.
 

jwillis

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I would use plywood supports where the red is. But I would put them on with screws. I use screws with everything. I won't use nails anymore on projects like this. It takes more time but it pays off in the long run. I wouldn't worry that much about snow. This looks pretty sturdy. Last year I had a metal carport put in my back yard over my new Impala. I started worrying about the snow that was building up on it. It has a metal roof but the 2 1/2" supports are five feet apart. I was afraid it would rack and the whole thing collapse, so I called the manufacturer. He said that it would take over three feet of snow to start worrying. At the time it only had about a foot. Then I remembered the guy who put it up and was walking around on it, probably weighed around 160 lbs. It takes a lot to collapse a roof. And yours looks pretty good.
 

trbomax

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No, I lived in North Dakota. My parents live in Minneapolis. Watch the news lately? Dad was out in the storm raking the snow off before it rained. It's easier that way than if you let multiple layers pile up. We did the shed, too.

I want pics of this 2 story garden shed with a 40' run. Yeah, I know. You were talking about your HOUSE. That's my point, this is a freaking 9' high SHED. Oh, and on multiple story roofs, it's done with steamers, or a ladder with a rake.

Never seen this steamer you mention. At my age I dont do ladders with rakes.You can get guys to shovel roofs up here at any bar,but the screws and /or shingles take a real beating. I would just prefer to overbuild 200% and let nature take its course.Usually with the steel roofs it never gets dangerously deep before it slides.Its only been bad enough 1 time that I got the "boys" to shovel,that was 2 yrs ago and it was over 4' When they were done you could walk off the roof ,onto the snow,and then to the ground. Took untill the end of march to get the ladders out.
 
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