Notgrownup
Well-known member
$5076.00 includes 10kw heat strips and air handler. This is using my existing ducts...Dealer includes a 2 year labor in the deal. It is almost the same price as Arcoair and Goodman. I thought this is very reasonable.
Quote on Installing a XR15 Trane heat pump
- Thread starter Notgrownup
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LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Just FYI, if you have a lot of trees that make "fuzzy" ****, the spine fin condenser coils like that model has are a PITA to clean. Microchannel coils like on high SEER units are a little better to clean, but are delicate and prone to leaks.
Tommy
Tommy
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
Mostly pine needles and leaves, pollen gets pretty bad...the higher SEER units are variable speed and I’m gonna stay away from those.
Should I ask for the XR16?
Should I ask for the XR16?
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manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Why would you shy away from variable speed? That's the quickest way to gain efficiency. Inverter based compressors and fans are even more desirable from a comfort and energy prospective.
ken275
Active member
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
3 ton, variable speed units tend to run all the time in the hot summer...repair parts are outrageous after warranty...my neighbor has one and he will replace it with a single stage.
I also listen to 3 different local installers because I know very little about HVAC....
Most installers told me the extra money I would pay for a variable speed, I would never make up enough savings looking at a 15 Seer single stage vs a 18 Seer variable speed andthe main benefit is going to be in comfort and indoor air humidity control.
I also listen to 3 different local installers because I know very little about HVAC....
Most installers told me the extra money I would pay for a variable speed, I would never make up enough savings looking at a 15 Seer single stage vs a 18 Seer variable speed andthe main benefit is going to be in comfort and indoor air humidity control.
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Jim greengo
Well-known member
Jim greengo
Well-known member
IMO -- many installers like to install .. what they install. I know what I know .. that's what I know.
Not to knock the trades -- but, I have bumped up against this my whole life. It's especially true with residential HVAC .. most will not even do a load calculation.
You are correct that the units run longer ... and yes they are more comfortable.
The need/ desire depends on the many factors .. but they do work and I have not had any issues with the various ones I have installed since about 06. Most have 10 year warranties.
Goodman/Amana now has 10/10 factory with lifetime compressor ... I see Carrier is upping they way they do warranties ... Carrier at one time sold a factory 10/10.
Not to knock the trades -- but, I have bumped up against this my whole life. It's especially true with residential HVAC .. most will not even do a load calculation.
You are correct that the units run longer ... and yes they are more comfortable.
The need/ desire depends on the many factors .. but they do work and I have not had any issues with the various ones I have installed since about 06. Most have 10 year warranties.
Goodman/Amana now has 10/10 factory with lifetime compressor ... I see Carrier is upping they way they do warranties ... Carrier at one time sold a factory 10/10.
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
This guy has been working with Trane for over 20 plus years , before he opened his own business he work for a very reputable local company, When the owner passed away he decided to go in business for himself, he was voted best HVAC local company 2 years in a row for the area in the newspaper...Growing small business but he is still getting it done.
He told me he was having some issues with the goodmans for the last few years (not major) but enough to let him dabble in the Arcoaire lone. He says he hasn't had any issues with them yet in 2 years.
I have emailed him to ask what it would cost to go to the XR16 instead of 15 ... Would 1 SEER difference make a whole lot of difference for me..
I had considered a 2 stage but both he and another local guy told me that It never stops , it mostly runs in the lower stages but all the time. He said if I wanted humidity control it would help but I already have a Dehumidifier in the crawlspace and it has made a huge difference in my living space as well.
If I can get a Trane for about the same price as a Goodman or Arcoaire, I will do that.
He told me he was having some issues with the goodmans for the last few years (not major) but enough to let him dabble in the Arcoaire lone. He says he hasn't had any issues with them yet in 2 years.
I have emailed him to ask what it would cost to go to the XR16 instead of 15 ... Would 1 SEER difference make a whole lot of difference for me..
I had considered a 2 stage but both he and another local guy told me that It never stops , it mostly runs in the lower stages but all the time. He said if I wanted humidity control it would help but I already have a Dehumidifier in the crawlspace and it has made a huge difference in my living space as well.
If I can get a Trane for about the same price as a Goodman or Arcoaire, I will do that.
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Goodman made basic equipment -- it was a value manufacturer. The goal was to make them inexpensive -- thin cabinets .. everything. No sound deadening ... they even eliminated sensors and devices that protected the units should something go wrong. The units just kept running .. until they died. All manufacturers make "value" products .. most have three lines or more. Some have secondary "names" they use for the "value" or "builder" grade stuff. Another thing about Goodman -- for years they were one of the few companies that sold to anybody -- every hack installing HVAC .. had to use Goodman. There are plenty of property installed Goodmans running. I always used Carriers basic line for my small rental properties -- a bit more money ... better value IMO. A builder buying 500 -- saving a few hundred per -- adds up.
Every company has some issues w/ products. Hating Lenox for heater issues back in the 80's -- still occurs. It's like me with GM .. so many bad memories -- can't buy the brand.
Goodman has improved and they bought Amana many years ago now -- the better line is Amana. Most of the better companies around me have more then one make they sell .. often offering Amana as a value now. They have a great warranty.
The new Bosch product looks very good.
Going from a higher SEER single to the two speed -- has nothing to do with saving money IMO. The higher cost will never be recovered .. it's about comfort and humidity control.
What if you conditioned the space now covered by the dehumidifier -- the AC would now take care of lowering the humidity?
Back from my walk and coffee at friends house -- we have had lots of rain .. it's a cooler morning at the beach today. What I noticed when walking back into my house -- vs my friends. No humidity and not as cold .. my house is comfy w/o being overly cooled.
Don't buy something you don't want or need -- but, the equipment works. I have said in other threads ... The guys that install the better equipment ..install a lot of it. Other guys don't .... and often don't have much experience.
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I have been living with multi stage heating (28 yrs), air (14 yrs), and dhw (22 yrs) and will never go back to single stage. You want your equipment to run all the time. What is it that kills equipment? Starts and stops! Get it going and keep it going and it will go. What is important to you is not how high it will go but how low. The comments about never recovering the additional cost, well, whets your comfort worth. Hell, it is your home and you do spend some time in it. 55 years in the business as a tradesman, contractor and manuf rep tells me that yeltdog's comment...well, truer words were never spoken. Pick a contractor you trust and put in the two/multi stage equipment he suggests. I would ignore Tommy's comment at your peril
Stay up with the cleanings to get the best out of any equipment and get your equipment off the ground to aid in keeping it clean(er).aunsafe2015
Well-known member
Why are you concerned about how long it runs? These machines are designed to run nonstop. In fact, startup is often what causes the most wear and tear so longer run times may actually be a good thing.
And no, a 2-ton two stage will not cost any more to operate than 2-ton one stage. Yes the to stage will operate longer but it's more energy efficient in the first stage. In fact 2-stage units are often higher SEER so on a $-per-BTU basis are cheaper to operate despite longer run times.
QwikKotaTx
Well-known member
$5k installed for furnace, a/c coil and condenser? That's a steal in the Houston area. I paid $7k for a 4 ton 14 SEER Lennox system last year.
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
I have been living with multi stage heating (28 yrs), air (14 yrs), and dhw (22 yrs) and will never go back to single stage. You want your equipment to run all the time. What is it that kills equipment? Starts and stops! Get it going and keep it going and it will go. What is important to you is not how high it will go but how low. The comments about never recovering the additional cost, well, whets your comfort worth. Hell, it is your home and you do spend some time in it. 55 years in the business as a tradesman, contractor and manuf rep tells me that yeltdog's comment...well, truer words were never spoken. Pick a contractor you trust and put in the two/multi stage equipment he suggests. I would ignore Tommy's comment at your peril
Compressors are happiest running non stop. Running at a reduced capacity for a longer time is usually more efficient than running fully loaded for a short period of time. You'll also experience more even comfort levels.
Tommy
danski0224
Well-known member
That quote is at least $7,358.26 high...
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
That is really good know, thanks. I will keep that in mind.
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
I appreciate all the feedback... I am trying to educate myself the best I can before dropping the coin on this...I am not cheap by no means but I don't want to pi$$ money away either... Return on investment means a lot but so does my comfort.
danski0224
Well-known member
QwikKotaTx
Well-known member
If your area is very hot and humid 75% of the year, a variable speed system will be a great addition as they can pull a lot of humidity out of the air and not have to manually bump the temp colder to do so. My upstairs was quite warm today as we had a drop in temp due to a storm, system did not run much. That has a single speed system. Downstairs was much cooler due to the high humidity outside and my variable speed system running much longer while in a low speed setting.
If you have moderate, somewhat dry temps I would just get the basic single speed unit. If the full system you mentioned is $5k, that's a good deal for anything around 3 tons.
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LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
Tommy
I decided not to fight that one....
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
Now it’s just up to me to decide if I wait until I have problems or be proactive....I would rather plan for it with having the funds ready and picking the right unit for me.
danski0224
Well-known member
sms1974
Well-known member
This is not true if you do it yearly... I've been a Trane / American Standard dealer for 30 years and I will tell you there easier to clean so long as there done regularly. All you need is a hose on a spine fin v/s a standard fin or micro channel where you typically need a foaming cleaner to push the crud out from between the fins... And i don't like the micro channel units at all, very difficult to clean and 99% of them are poorly manufactured no mater the brand.
The price you were quoted is fantastically low!!! we just went through a new pricing increase from American Standard based on volume, ok for me we move a lot of equipment but as usual the little guy is going to get screwed. There aim is to put the guy doing it out of his truck without the overhead out of business, these guys will just sell another brand...
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
I get my unit serviced yearly...Matter of fact I’m getting my old one serviced tomorrow...
sssSMOKING
Member
I know you started this question 3 years ago but I would very much like to have an update on what you decided to go with and how it is doing??
Would you buy the same thing if you had to do over?
I am in the same situation as I have a 30 year old heat pump that I have decided to replace and am in the process at looking at the Trane XR15 or XR16.
Thoughts Notgrownup? Thanks and I appreciate your time.
sssSMOKING
fitter30
Well-known member
The higher the efficiency the less qualified service people there are to work on them and parts are more expensive.
sssSMOKING
Member
Good info fitter30 and thanks for the reply. So what efficiency should I shoot for. I want something that will last a long time without many problems. I don't mine paying a little more on my electric bill.
Thoughts?
sssSMOKING
I have always said, you either pay the contractor, or the utility. There is no free lunch when it comes to saving money on HVAC equipment. You can get the high efficiency equipment, pay twice as much and by the time the savings on electricity or fuel matches up it is probably time to replace the equipment again. Or you can by lower price, lower efficiency equipment and just pay higher prices to the utility.
If you have gotten multiple quotes and you feel comfortable with the prices and the contractor, then buy it!My buddy just went through this for his house. He called me and asked me what I would do and I told him he would never come out on the energy savings with the higher priced equipment, comfort level is a bunch of marketing B.S. as far as I m concerned. I have a fully modulating furnace in my house right now, and I will not buy another one! Nothing wrong with it, other than higher priced and more **** to go wrong. It is questionable if comfort is any better.
As far as cleaning the spine fin coils, I would drag out my oxy-acetyene torch and burn off the fuzz, then wash.
If you have gotten quotes from 2-3 contractors and the price is similar go with the contractor you feel will do a better job, even if it costs more.
If you have gotten multiple quotes and you feel comfortable with the prices and the contractor, then buy it!My buddy just went through this for his house. He called me and asked me what I would do and I told him he would never come out on the energy savings with the higher priced equipment, comfort level is a bunch of marketing B.S. as far as I m concerned. I have a fully modulating furnace in my house right now, and I will not buy another one! Nothing wrong with it, other than higher priced and more **** to go wrong. It is questionable if comfort is any better.
As far as cleaning the spine fin coils, I would drag out my oxy-acetyene torch and burn off the fuzz, then wash.
If you have gotten quotes from 2-3 contractors and the price is similar go with the contractor you feel will do a better job, even if it costs more.
sssSMOKING
Member
I could not agree with you more. I will pay the power company and stay with a simple easy to repair unit. Right now not sure what that will be.
Thank You
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
Well I actually decided to keep my old unit . 19 years old 3 ton Goodman unit. Still runs good. Just had to replace the fan on the condenser unit.
sssSMOKING
Member
Thanks "Notgrownup". I was their 10 years ago as my unit is now 30 years old. Still runs good. I think it's time for me to switch it out. I guess you'll never find a unit these days that will last that 30 years.
Have a great day "Notgrownup"
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
My dealer, installer talked me out of getting a new one. That’s honest there and I respect that.
fitter30
Well-known member
15 or 16 seer
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sssSMOKING
Member
That is a very good read. Thank you sir.15 or 16 seer
SEER Energy Savings Calculator for Air Conditioners
Use our free SEER Energy Savings Calculator to instantly see how much energy you save by upgrading to an air conditioner with a higher SEER / SEER2 rating.www.seerenergysavings.com
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
You have to think about possibly repairing it later on, single stage units are a lot less to acquire and repair. The guy I was talking to said the main reason to get a multi stage or variable speed unit would be for humidity control but if you don’t need that a single stage unit would be great. He told me to use mine until it completely dies and costs more than a grand to fix. He also said that It would be hard to recover the cost with buying a new unit thinking I would.
sssSMOKING
Member
Yes, I completely agree!
Thanks for the info "Notgrownup"
I tell people all the time .... there is no real savings in replacing like kind equipment that is working well. If a single stage unit is sized property and the ductwork is proper .... they can work very well. Now -- that is not often the case. Very common to have oversized equipment and underized ductwork. Another issue is noise .... lots of older equipment is loud. That can be because of the equipment .... bad ductwork .... or both.
I always feel bad when someone worried about an older system failing -- calls the local HVAC people and w/o doing any calcualtions makes the switch to a base grade unit. The savings are not there .....
When you have to switch -- doing some calcualtions and understanding what the new type of equipment can provide makes for a wise decision. Some people will gain comfort and quiet with the new variable speed equipment
OP
Notgrownup
Well-known member
Fortunately, my original installer did a good job and my system alth I can hear running is not very loud Inside, the condenser unit is another story… It’s 19 years old and you can tell. But it still heats and cools flawlessly. I might consider a 2 stage system but probably not a variable speed one Because of cost.