R22 versus R410A

[justsam]

I am strongly considering having an outdoor condensing unit installed for my home, (it is next to the garage, so garage related).

It is a custom home, built in 2006, about 4500 sq ft. At the time of build the HVAC system was prepped for AC, which included the coil, (Bryant CK5BXT060024AAAA) installed in a Bryant 90+ Model 350AAV060100FASA furnace. The line set is run, control wire, and 50Amp breakers with disconnect.

I have contacted the HVAC firm that did the original install, and he is recommending a 5 ton unit, but states because of the old coil he must use R22 as opposed to the newer R410A. It will be a 13 SEER, "dry" unit.

Does this make sense? Am I creating a future problem by not going to R410A? The previous install work done by this firm looks first rate to me, so I do not have an issue with workmanship.

Also should I care if it is Payne, Bryant, Day and Night, since they are all Carrier products?

 

[J4nss(WNY)]

Change out the coil to an R410A coil and scrap the old one. The price of the R22 to charge the system will be half the cost of the new coil. Plus you will be upgraded for any future service issues. R22 is selling for 300 bucks and R410A is 70 bucks in the Buffalo area.

 

[brewchief]

Take a good look at the tag on the coil and see if it says R-22 only or R-22/R410a. Carrier/Bryant was selling R-410a equipment well before 2006, I would be surprised if the coil is R-22 only.

 

[blind]

Already that high? That makes me wish I went with r410a two years ago.

 

[Jackfre]

The 410a equipment came out several years ago. To get around the requirement for the better, more environmentally friendly, 410a the unitary manuf's found a loop hole which allowed the dry units to "qualify" and be allowed to be sold. The R22 is always cheaper, today, but you will see economies of scale with the 410a equip.

 

[justsam]

Thanks to all for the replies, questions were answered that beg more questions.

Brewchief was right on, the coil very plainly states right on a sticker that it is R22/410A capable. The pro, and business owner looked at the same sticker and in addition before his visit I had provided the full model number. Why would he then advise that I must use R22 and he provide a "dry" unit. What would be the benefit to me or him?

Am I making something out of nothing? I have owned systems in the past that worked for 15 years and never leaked refrigerant so escalating prices on R22 are in my mind a bit of a red herring, however why not use R410A if all else is equal? What am I missing?

 

[cort]

Thanks to all for the replies, questions were answered that beg more questions.

Brewchief was right on, the coil very plainly states right on a sticker that it is R22/410A capable. The pro, and business owner looked at the same sticker and in addition before his visit I had provided the full model number. Why would he then advise that I must use R22 and he provide a "dry" unit. What would be the benefit to me or him?

Am I making something out of nothing? I have owned systems in the past that worked for 15 years and never leaked refrigerant so escalating prices on R22 are in my mind a bit of a red herring, however why not use R410A if all else is equal? What am I missing?

I am baffled too as to why your installer would feel that R22 is necessary for your system. Is he using this as an excuse to jack up the price? I would be inclined to look elsewhere if your first installer doesn't come around to the fact that you can and probably should use 410a as your refrigerant. My bias would be to not use R22 in a new system since it has been phased out. Good luck.

 

[justsam]

I certainly don't know since I have never been in this business, but I am beginning to wonder if this is a way around the California Title 24 requirements. I know the use of a "dry" unit fits that assumption, but why skirt it?

There is a requirement for a duct leakage certification, would this exempt it?

I will call on Monday, but I am not getting a good feeling about this in spite of this HVAC dealer being the original installer and continues to be used by the custom home builder of my home. He also has offered a reasonable bid, but I want to make sure I am apples to apples.

 

[JimL]

Switch to 410… I hope you have the ductwork for 5 tons of air… Most homes don't.

 

[nochina1966]

Carrier have been using 410-A ( Puron), long before it was mandated for all mfrs to switch to it. In my job experience, they still have the lowest warranty failure rate of copper coil leaks, though they are now switching to all aluminum coils, following Rheem, Trane, Goodman among others. Your evap coil may just require a new expansion valve, though the cost with the labor is still pretty steep. Go with a dry R-22 unit for best immediate savings, they now have a 'drop-in' replacement freon that's pretty much close to R22. If you ever develop a leak, the cost of repairs will probably push you in the direction of a new system anyway


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[bazar01]

I am strongly considering having an outdoor condensing unit installed for my home, (it is next to the garage, so garage related).

It is a custom home, built in 2006, about 4500 sq ft. At the time of build the HVAC system was prepped for AC, which included the coil, (Bryant CK5BXT060024AAAA) installed in a Bryant 90+ Model 350AAV060100FASA furnace. The line set is run, control wire, and 50Amp breakers with disconnect.

I have contacted the HVAC firm that did the original install, and he is recommending a 5 ton unit, but states because of the old coil he must use R22 as opposed to the newer R410A. It will be a 13 SEER, "dry" unit.

Does this make sense? Am I creating a future problem by not going to R410A? The previous install work done by this firm looks first rate to me, so I do not have an issue with workmanship.

Also should I care if it is Payne, Bryant, Day and Night, since they are all Carrier products?

Well, since the evaporator coil is R22/R410A ready as per specs, go for R410A. Replace the fixed orifice with a properly sized R410A expansion valve and get a heat pump condenser with an expansion valve. R410A costs less than $80 for a 30lb cylinder vs. $300 for R22 so future cost of recharging will be less.
Your system has never been charged with R22 so going with R410A is the way to go. You don't have to flush the system since it has never been charged with R22.

 

[Trey T]

R22 is $215 in my area; I called several days ago. The price of R22 has been steady for the last 3yrs.

There will be R22 refrigerant and equipment to be sold for many years to come. Gas companies won't stop until 2020.

Those are the facts but you're starting fresh, go with R410

 

[pop pop]

Well, for the sake of a different opinion, I'd go with R-22. Less problems and likely less leaks. If the system is pressure checked and evacuated properly (microns, not in. vac.) it'll probably last on the charge till the system is worn out. If worried, buy an extra 30# can of R-22 and store it.

 

[PT Doc]

1 furnace and 4500 sq ft. I would guess that you will not be pleased with the cooling capabilities once everything is installed.

 

[Trey T]

That's relatively speaking because leaks depends on the craftsmanship of the unit(s) manufacturer and installer. You can say the same thing with R22 systems.

Well, for the sake of a different opinion, I'd go with R-22. Less problems and likely less leaks. If the system is pressure checked and evacuated properly (microns, not in. vac.) it'll probably last on the charge till the system is worn out. If worried, buy an extra 30# can of R-22 and store it.

 

[justsam]

1 furnace and 4500 sq ft. I would guess that you will not be pleased with the cooling capabilities once everything is installed.

Help me understand that better.

The existing heating distribution seems OK. Is heat removal that much different than adding heat?

The home is well insulated and run times for heating are rather short once up to temperature.

Of course climate in Northern California is moderate. In regard to the square footage, there is an upstairs loft, that accounts for about 600 sq ft that is seldom used, but really can not be isolated.

 

[Falcon67]

There will be R22 refrigerant and equipment to be sold for many years to come. Gas companies won't stop until 2020.

2020 sounds like a long way off - only 6 years. Probably ought to think further down the road than 6 years.

 

[Trey T]

^I'm just providing the information, no more or less. Didn't I recommend R410a, though?

 

[nochina1966]

I live in South Florida, so the BTU requirements in your cooling may differ. Most important that you get a heat load calculation, it'll be worth the money. It'll let you know approx how many BTU's you will need to satisfy the demand. We typically go around 500-600 ft per ton( 12,000 BTU's) down here, although newer tighter homes are known to go up to 800 ft per ton. Do the heat load calc ! If you are going to Invest good money into this, you may have to redo everything, including ductwork, to handle the required air-flow( thank-you previous poster for mentioning that )


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[PT Doc]

I live in South Florida, so the BTU requirements in your cooling may differ. Most important that you get a heat load calculation, it'll be worth the money. It'll let you know approx how many BTU's you will need to satisfy the demand. We typically go around 500-600 ft per ton( 12,000 BTU's) down here, although newer tighter homes are known to go up to 800 ft per ton. Do the heat load calc ! If you are going to Invest good money into this, you may have to redo everything, including ductwork, to handle the required air-flow( thank-you previous poster for mentioning that )


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very good idea and the only way to ensure you have appropriate vents and return.

 

[Ohmthis]

I'm going to second having a manual j done. This is a calculation to see what the house Actully needs to cool. Also a manual d, calculation for the duct sizing for the size ac unit. As for the coil, call the manufacturer and give them the coil number and have them verify it's use of r410. Some can only be used in heat applications (don't ask me why).

 

[danski0224]

I am strongly considering having an outdoor condensing unit installed for my home, (it is next to the garage, so garage related).

It is a custom home, built in 2006, about 4500 sq ft. At the time of build the HVAC system was prepped for AC, which included the coil, (Bryant CK5BXT060024AAAA) installed in a Bryant 90+ Model 350AAV060100FASA furnace. The line set is run, control wire, and 50Amp breakers with disconnect.

I have contacted the HVAC firm that did the original install, and he is recommending a 5 ton unit, but states because of the old coil he must use R22 as opposed to the newer R410A. It will be a 13 SEER, "dry" unit.

Does this make sense? Am I creating a future problem by not going to R410A? The previous install work done by this firm looks first rate to me, so I do not have an issue with workmanship.

Also should I care if it is Payne, Bryant, Day and Night, since they are all Carrier products?

Change the metering device in the coil and go with 410A.

It would be interesting to see the construction details, as 4500sf on one system is pushing it if you are not building well above code.

I'm guessing that is a "standard" 24" wide coil, so hopefully the rest of the system, including the air filters, is up to par.

 

[Heatdr]

You must flush the coil and line set first,the oil in R22 is not compatible with R410.They recommend changing everything out.R410 when mixes with moisture creates acid so the system has to be very dry and leak free.
The dry unit means it comes with no refrigerant because they can no longer sell R22 units so they sell them empty.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Conversion requires all the joints on the lineset have to be redone if they're not brazed, too. Might as well get the whole shebang at that point...

Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Carrier have been using 410-A ( Puron), long before it was mandated for all mfrs to switch to it. In my job experience, they still have the lowest warranty failure rate of copper coil leaks, though they are now switching to all aluminum coils, following Rheem, Trane, Goodman among others. Your evap coil may just require a new expansion valve, though the cost with the labor is still pretty steep. Go with a dry R-22 unit for best immediate savings, they now have a 'drop-in' replacement freon that's pretty much close to R22. If you ever develop a leak, the cost of repairs will probably push you in the direction of a new system anyway


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If I had a dollar for every leaking carrier coil Ive come across over the years I could make a nice pillow!
Theres nothing wrong with the dry r-22 units you shouldn't have to worry about leaks.
I come across 30 plus year old r-22 units all the time that still run fine,because they've been properly cared for over the years.
I also come across 4-5 year old 410a units that look like they should be on life support because a lot of guys don't take any pride in their work.
Ive got one lady that Ive serviced her old lennox low boy furnace for more than 20 plus years,I swear she waxes that thing twice a year!
Its big and bulky/inefficient as hell but its simple/tough and just keeps running.
That thing has probably been there since about 1950 I bet,Id be interested to see how many high efficiency furnaces are still running after 60 plus years.

 

[yeldogt]

I would have a heat load done ... don't know how many hours it will run in a year but 5 tons is not small and with electric rates? You want the correct size unit for both efficiency and comfort - you don't want to oversize the AC.

Is the new condenser a true match ? ,,,, or is this a situation where .. it will work? If it is the latter - you will not get the 13SEER ... ++ on the electric.

I would never spend the money to install an r22 unit with a possible mismatched coil.

Get a current model -- with a warrantee ... and be done with it.