R410a Phase Out

[azmodela]

Obviously it's been known for a bit, and starts in 2023 which is just around the corner. In the off season, I'll be in the markert for a complete HVAC replacement as mine is 21 years old now, and being in the desert, it's served me well. I'll be replacing an R22 system.

Any thoughts on the phase out of R410a? I'll be either buying new R410a equipment, or if I replace in the spring, maybe I'll get newer A2L equipment. I had this issue with my current system, service calls with refridgerant checks were pricey for R22 in the second half of it's life. I'll be in the same boat 10 years or more from now with 410a.

Something to worry about, or not?

 

[Jim greengo]

Are they trying to fix the leaks in old system,or just a pump and run job?
I prefer the old r22 systems myself anyway.

 

[fitter30]

Epa and refrigerant are changing all the time. Equipment like computer's are changing every 6 months or more. Don't really think their is a long term solution. R 22 most contractors won't even repair the residential systems just replace just like the R12 refrigeration. R410a is what is used mostly. Carrier and Trane might use sometime else but who really knows tomorrow.

 

[Showkey]

Considering you can still find R12 in the marketplace ……….I would not worry about 410A for a long time.
Guys that won’t work on R22…….it’s the selling point to a sale of a new unit$$$$$. Yes, R22 is expensive.

 

[danski0224]

Obviously it's been known for a bit, and starts in 2023 which is just around the corner. In the off season, I'll be in the markert for a complete HVAC replacement as mine is 21 years old now, and being in the desert, it's served me well. I'll be replacing an R22 system.

Any thoughts on the phase out of R410a? I'll be either buying new R410a equipment, or if I replace in the spring, maybe I'll get newer A2L equipment. I had this issue with my current system, service calls with refridgerant checks were pricey for R22 in the second half of it's life. I'll be in the same boat 10 years or more from now with 410a.

Something to worry about, or not?

R12 and R22 are still available, if you want to pay for it.

I'm sure that the same thing will be true for R-410A.

I'm not fully versed in the details, but it seems that R-410A equipment may not be available to purchase in 2023, so if that's what you want, you probably need to buy it now.

Not sure if existing R-410A equipment inventory will be able to be sold in 2023, or not. If not, then no supplier or manufacturer will want to be stuck with unsellable inventory.

There was a "dry condenser" loophole for R-22, which was closed. That probably won't happen again with this change.

I wonder how the manufacturers will handle parts warranties on R-410A stuff sold before 2023, but needing warranty replacement after, like evaporator coils.

 

[bonneyman]

I know the price companies are charging for 22 is outrageous, but have you priced the newer systems lately? Old customers of mine are complaining of prices between $8,000 and $12,000. Plus the supply chain BS with some units are not even available. If it's true the "next" changeover is set for next year I'd keep my old warhorse going with the idea of getting the new new system. Why pay to install a new 410a system if the gas is going to be banned in the next few years - then you're right back in the boat you're in now? Just wait and "skip" over the 410a unit to the next approved system.

 

[danski0224]

R22 is around $1,100 a jug. Maybe more, it seems to fluctuate hourly...

A company isn't going to sell it at cost, and there will be an add on for the time to install it.

Yes, there will be prices that are high and structured to sell a new system, which may not be a bad thing at this point in time (replacing an old system, not price gouging).

However, I'd say that around 100 a pound as a retail price is not out of line.

And yes, due to the phaseout and new SEER regulations, there really is a supply problem. No one wants to be stuck carrying inventory that can't legally be sold after a certain point.

 

[reader2580]

This is bad news on the price front when your A/C equipment eventually needs replacement. I bet the new refrigerants and the equipment to use it will cost much more than R410a. Y1234f refrigerant for cars is priced sky high compared to R134a.

 

[bonneyman]

With R22 it was the manufacturing that was made illegal. Once it was made warehouses could sell it till the last one was gone. It's why manufacturers ran day and night making every unit they could till the deadline, then did the dry charge option (which I thought was brilliant)! I assume the phase out of 410a will be similar.
It's how I got my A/C. I got the last brand of unit in the size I needed in the entire state. I ordered it and paid for it, and they shipped the last one they had in the computer from another city to my dealer. (And it sat in the backyard boxed till the next spring when I bought the furnace and coil and installed it)!
And I recall units being available for at least a year after that. Companies bought up other dealers inventories and installed them on their customers jobs. Some guys made some serious cash during that wild season, I can tell you that.

 

[bonneyman]

OK, just did some research. Seems like Y1234R is the chosen solution for cars because - while R-134a dealt with the ozone depletion angle - it still has a high global warming potential. (The stated issue with R-410a) So, they came up with 1234 to address that. Only problem is it is flammable, though stated to be only slightly flammable. (This is the problem with R-32, the gas to replace R-410a). How can they put a pressurized flammable gas under the hood of todays hot cars? And what about crashes? They did summersaults trying to aleviate fears of it's flammability. That's my issue with R-32. I've seen house fire videos where the condensing unit gets enveloped in flames, and eventually pops. You've got close-in explosive damage and probably toxic by-products. But you don't have additional flammability concerns. I'm thinking though they modify the flammability codes and find a way to slip it on in.

Oh, and 1234 is 10X the cost of 134a. I expect R32 to be likewise golden compared to 410a.

 

[American Locomotive]

R410a has R32 in it. It is literally just a 50/50 blend of R32 and R125. The R125 is acts as a fire-retardant and helps bring down discharge temperatures. So R32 costs shouldn't be drastically different.

R32 is non-explosive, and is extremely difficult to burn. It needs to reach concentrations of 15-29% by volume in air to actually burn. It also burns extremely slowly.

If you have a house fire, the few pounds of R32 in your condensing unit should be the least of your concerns. You have a car with a tank full of gasoline in the garage, a 20 pound tank of propane in your grill and a 100-gallon propane tank (or natural gas line) feeding your house.

 

[engineer2]

So if you get your old house AC replaced what do they do with the recovered R22? Sell it on the next service call?

 

[danski0224]

So if you get your old house AC replaced what do they do with the recovered R22? Sell it on the next service call?

It's not legal to do that.

 

[engineer2]

Any idea what they do with it if they can't use it to top up another system?

 

[Norcal]

Any idea what they do with it if they can't use it to top up another system?

Destroy it.

 

[reader2580]

How is refrigerant destroyed without impacting the ozone layer? It would seem better to develop a process to clean used refrigerant so it can be sold again. I know the rules are that recovered refrigerant can only be put back into the same system, or put into systems owned by the same owner.

R290 is essentially purified propane. It is used in a lot of commercial reach-in freezers and refrigerators. The amount used is generally well under a pound, but it is still very flammable.

 

[Aileron]

It gets turned back into the supply house who then sends it back to get recycled. If the original owner of the refrigerant has another unit , it can be saved and used to charge that unit as long as it doesn't change ownership.

 

[danski0224]

Any idea what they do with it if they can't use it to top up another system?

There are refrigerant recovery programs.

The reclaimed refrigerant gets turned in, processed and sold.

If the recovery cylinder has mixed refrigerants (like someone put 22 into a cylinder with 410A), that supposedly gets incinerated. I don't know if it can be separated.

 

[LG63]

I’m pondering the same question as the OP and after some googling I’m still confused on the 410A equipment phase out dates. Is it 2023 for California and 2025 for the rest of the country?

 

[bonneyman]

Just talked to my local warehouse buddy yesterday. He said the "inventory sell-off grace period" of the past has been eliminated. So no "sub-standard" equipment can be sold or installed after Dec. 31st (I'm assuming this December). Gonna make parts hard to come by if you just got a new unit installed, as the manufacturers have no incentive to keep making units (or OEM parts) for "banned equipment anymore. What a cluster fark! If you ain't got the part on the truck, then the customer ain't gonna get it.

 

[reader2580]

If R410A equipment can’t be installed after Dec 31st you would think manufacturers will stop production of R410A equipment before long. They won’t want equipment in inventory that can’t be installed.

 

[LG63]

Exactly. For a deadline that is supposedly less than 5 months away there is surprisingly little info online. There’s no mention of it on the Lennox or Trane website. With lead times being what they are these days, it would seem the equipment would need to be in the manufacturing pipeline now if deliveries are going to occur Jan 1. I suppose if the equipment redesign only involves a decal the switch over could be fairly quick.

I’m guessing there will be some sort of last minute extension due to “supply chain” issues.

 

[reader2580]

The EPA allowed diesel engines manufactured before Jan 1, 2007 to be installed in new vehicles after Jan 1, 2007. Some vehicle manufacturers ordered as many pre-2007 diesel engines as they could get so they could keep using the old engines in calendar year 2007.

It seems like the EPA should allow A/C equipment produced before Jan 1, 2023 to still be installed.

 

[PelicanPines]

I have 3 zones... 2 are R22. I have a full 30 pound can IF they ever need to be "topped off". I also have a NEWer (4 yrs or so) 410a system. All 3 work flawlessly now. The 410a system replaced a chronically leaking R22 system. It leaked because of TWO totally incompetent service "Unprofessionals". One charged the empty system with R22... but never evacuated the nitrogen charge. It just went bad from there. Including venting the system TWICE into the atmosphere because they "forgot" their vacuum equip and didn't want to drive 2 miles. If I knew then what I know now... I would be much happier. FYI... the system they vented was a 3 ton system with a 70 foot line.

 

[RoninB4]

A tad disturbing reading all this. Am currently in need of a new system and was unaware of the phase-out. Will this end up being similar to the phase-out of the old incandescent light bulb? Higher cost and new problems for no appreciable gain? Just great....

 

[danski0224]

Including venting the system TWICE into the atmosphere because they "forgot" their vacuum equip and didn't want to drive 2 miles.

That kind of stuff happens a lot.

At one place I worked for, the system that was being replaced developed a leak the day before, to save the time required to recover the refrigerant properly. That is not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Wrench97]

The EPA allowed diesel engines manufactured before Jan 1, 2007 to be installed in new vehicles after Jan 1, 2007. Some vehicle manufacturers ordered as many pre-2007 diesel engines as they could get so they could keep using the old engines in calendar year 2007.

It seems like the EPA should allow A/C equipment produced before Jan 1, 2023 to still be installed.

That was mainly because of the consent decree with the EPA from the most of the engine manufacturers to move up the 2010 standard to 2008 there were a lot of issues not resolved so the EPA let them pre-sell 2007 engines.

 

[danski0224]

If R410A equipment can’t be installed after Dec 31st you would think manufacturers will stop production of R410A equipment before long. They won’t want equipment in inventory that can’t be installed.

As I understand it, this is what's happening. I'm trying to get info from a supplier.

No grace period like with water heaters and R22 equipment.

 

[azmodela]

A tad disturbing reading all this. Am currently in need of a new system and was unaware of the phase-out.

That's why I asked, I'll be in the market as well in the off season. So I'll either be getting the last of the 410a equipment, and if it lasts 20 years plus, dealing with supply issues on 20 year old 410a refrigerant or equipment. Or I get the first of the new equipment/tech, which is always risky. I do understand it's basically a refrigerant change out, and it doesn't impact the actual equipment too much, but still.

Good comments in the thread....

 

[metlmunchr]

Google 40144222400.pdf to get a complete explanation of what can and can't be sold after 1/1/23. Day and night is a division of Carrier so the info should be accurate. The problem with most of the online info is that it's posted by HVAC dealers and is, for the most part, half accurate and rumor based.

Anything built prior to 1/1/23 can be sold and installed after 1/1 with one exception. Cooling only units must be compliant with new regs if they are installed after 1/1 in the south region. The pdf has maps showing the various regions.

Daikin developed R32 years ago and released the patent. They already have over a million systems operating in Asia on R32, and will be changing their US brands to R32. This will include Daikin, Goodman, Amana, etc. R32 was cheaper than R410a even before the recent price jacking of 410a.

Most of the US based manufacturers will be switching to R454b which is a blend of R32 and R1234yf.

It's my understanding that essentially all mini splits for the Asian market already use R32, so, given the fact that most all minis sold in the US are of Asian origin, I'd assume these will transition to R32 fairly seamlessly since they're already in well established production.

 

[reader2580]

I bet R-454b will not be cheap considering the sky high cost of R1234yf.

 

[bonneyman]

I bet R-454b will not be cheap considering the sky high cost of R1234yf.

That's one aspect we all agree on - whatever happens it's gonna hit our wallets hard!

 

[Firebrick43]

.How can they put a pressurized flammable gas under the hood of todays hot cars? And what about crashes? They did summersaults trying to aleviate fears of it's flammability.

You mean like pressurized gasoline used under the hoods of cars in fuel injection systems since 1949 in MB cars or 57/58 in American cars? Much more flammable. You would probably be white with fear of all the tractors out there with propane replacing r12 in their ac systems.

How about all the pickups and medium duty truct that ran off of propane since the 60'S? LNG delivery trucks for the last 20 years? Let alone all the tractors, forklifts, mowers, generator and manlifts that have been running off of LPAnd NG for decades.

Are you afraid of firearms too?

 

[mogandave]

It's my understanding that essentially all mini splits for the Asian market already use R32, so, given the fact that most all minis sold in the US are of Asian origin, I'd assume these will transition to R32 fairly seamlessly since they're already in well established production.

While the majority are R32, R410A is still pretty common, at least here in Thailand.

We are a little spoiled here in that you can buy a 25,000 BTU inverter unit for under $1,000 with "free" installation and a 5/10 warranty. No heat though...

https://www.carrier.co.th/products/carrier/dl/42TVDA_catalog.pdf

 

[Jim greengo]

You mean like pressurized gasoline used under the hoods of cars in fuel injection systems since 1949 in MB cars or 57/58 in American cars? Much more flammable. You would probably be white with fear of all the tractors out there with propane replacing r12 in their ac systems.

How about all the pickups and medium duty truct that ran off of propane since the 60'S? LNG delivery trucks for the last 20 years? Let alone all the tractors, forklifts, mowers, generator and manlifts that have been running off of LPAnd NG for decades.

Are you afraid of firearms too?

Well if the lines for the fuel injection were running into a coil connected to vents under my dash,yeah I'd probably have a few questions.

 

[Firebrick43]

Well if the lines for the fuel injection were running into a coil connected to vents under my dash,yeah I'd probably have a few questions.

Why? Have you had an evaporator coil fail, or more specifically fail so spectacularly that in vents all the freon/lp into the cabin in an extremely short time? I have never seen that?

I guess if you were physically unable to smell Mercaptan oil and like to ash cigarette into the ac vents, then yea, maybe you don't want to do so.

 

[engineer2]

Propane is a great refrigerant. Just can't have a leak in an enclosed space. Imagine an evap leak in your car.

 

[Firebrick43]

Propane is a great refrigerant. Just can't have a leak in an enclosed space. Imagine an evap leak in your car.

Cars a leaky as hell, To fill up and have an explosion, it would have to be a very large leak, very sudden and fast, while the occupants would have to withstand the smell of Mercaptan while smoking. Have you seen that kind of failure before? I mean I guess I might find a 100 million dollar winning powerball ticket on the sidewalk someday?

 

[Jim greengo]

Why? Have you had an evaporator coil fail, or more specifically fail so spectacularly that in vents all the freon/lp into the cabin in an extremely short time? I have never seen that?

I guess if you were physically unable to smell Mercaptan oil and like to ash cigarette into the ac vents, then yea, maybe you don't want to do so.

You've never seen a coil leak before?
I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in the HVAC business.
Theres a reason they sell replacement evap coils for cars also.
You were the 1 who brought up fuel injection,last time I checked I've never seen fuel lines running through the inside of any passenger vehicle I've owned.
Do you suppose there's a reason why the big chunk of steel between the engine bay and passenger area is called a fire wall?
Well I take that part about fuel lines back,I drove a lot of old trucks in my youth with gas tanks behind the seat.
But Its been a long time since they built them,and they weren't running 50 plus lbs of fuel pressure.

 

[bonneyman]

You mean like pressurized gasoline used under the hoods of cars in fuel injection systems since 1949 in MB cars or 57/58 in American cars? Much more flammable. You would probably be white with fear of all the tractors out there with propane replacing r12 in their ac systems.

How about all the pickups and medium duty truct that ran off of propane since the 60'S? LNG delivery trucks for the last 20 years? Let alone all the tractors, forklifts, mowers, generator and manlifts that have been running off of LPAnd NG for decades.

Are you afraid of firearms too?

There are rules in the use of refrigerants that have been around for decades. Ammonia was a great refrigerant - it had almost 10 times the thermal efficiency of the CFC's that replaced it. But it had toxicity and flammability concerns. R-12 and R-22 are thermally stable up to relatively high temperatures. Made them much safer around people. Now we're being forced to accept a gas that's a step backwards in safety, because the greenies want to save the earth? That's what I'm bucking.