racing harness question?

[PoorOwner]

Sorry this is not directly related to the garage.. but I think some of the racing guys here might know. my car is old enough now I can't find a working seatbelt that locks up properly.

I am using a 4 pt harness right now. But some say you need a harness bar, some say you need a roll cage. What's the proper way to use it on the street? I don't quite understand this spinal compression thing, when does it happen?

I still drive on the street so roll cage and no helmet might not be good.

Thanks

 

[banzaitoyota]

Get the harness mounting technical docs from the manufacturer. Also, harnesses are not DOT Approved for road use. Your milage may vary; do not bend, sauttee, hook or suspend under heavy objects. The universe is laughing behind your back.

 

[jmauld]

Check out the schroth rally-3 belt. It's pricey but addresses your concerns, will hold you in better then the stock system, and is easy to get in and out of. Just be sure to install it according to the directions.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclsafety.htm

 

[nissan_crawler]

It doesn't matter if it's a roll cage or harness bar. What DOES matter is that the belts go no more than 4" (rule of thumb, check manufacturer specs for whatever you buy) lower than your shoulders where they attach to said bar. This keeps the belt from pulling down on you in an accident where you're forced forward. If the belt mounting point is low, it wants to pull you down when you go forward. If the belt mounting point is less than 4" below, you go forward and just hit the belts.

*I am not an approved source by which to mount your belts. Consult the manufacturer of your choosing, they paid engineers to figure this out for a reason.

 

[milkovich]

Where I you, I would try very hard to re-web/repair the original system or a system like it. It's got to be a rare car if you can't find parts to repair the factory belts.

I know one of the primary concerns with race cars is that the seat will break loose from the car while the harness will not. Spine, neck, crotch... I dont' care what you compress but it sounds painful to me. The race seat mounting rules go hand in hand with the harness mounting rules for that reason (and the roll bar and helmet rules).

 

[Ezzie]

A cross bar running behind the seats (between the "B" pillars) at the appropriate height would be the best way to attach your shoulder belts in the case of a 4 or 5 point belt system. If you had a roll bar as well (simple hoop with two back braces and cross brace) it would give you additional protection from the possibility of the roof caving in on a rollover, just make sure it is a decent distance behind your head.

You should never drive a car with a roll cage in it (ie. front hoops, roof bracing, etc.) without wearing a Snell SA approved helmet on or you are at risk of suffering serious head injuries in a collision.

As far as seat belt legality, only the OEM belts are DOT certified for the application. Installing an aftermarket racing style seatbelt system is actually deemed by many jurisdictions as illegal when driving on public roads (check your state's Traffic Act).

 

[raffaelli]

Sorry this is not directly related to the garage.. but I think some of the racing guys here might know. my car is old enough now I can't find a working seatbelt that locks up properly.

I am using a 4 pt harness right now. But some say you need a harness bar, some say you need a roll cage. What's the proper way to use it on the street? I don't quite understand this spinal compression thing, when does it happen?

I still drive on the street so roll cage and no helmet might not be good.

Thanks

What car is it? You'd be surprized at what you can find at the junk yard.

You are using a 4 pt harness for the street? Not DOT approved. Also, I have not run across a DOT harness. A 4 pt would mena you have the the two shoulder straps tied back to a horizontal bar across the rear of the front seats or back to anchoring points inside the rear seat. Both connection point do not seem DOT approved to me.

You intend to race this car? If so, don't waste time with a 4 point and a bar. You need a 5/6 point and a full weld in cage.

Don't drive a car with an halo hoop and no helmet....your just asking for brain trauma.

 

[PoorOwner]

I have found the Schroth is the only DOT approved harness in US

http://www.soloracer.com/rallye4.html

I am thinking of going to the junkyard and find a WORKING stock belt.. I think a new one or a reweb job is costing $400.. when I looked a few years back.

I do go to driving events (not wheel to wheel racing, mostly low speed stuff) where a harness helps but I have been wanting to get a safer setup for the street.. I have been using a sparco 4 point for a while now but I only drive the car around the city.

 

[raffaelli]

Check that, http://www.soloracer.com/legal.html

May not be street legal, 'intended for offroad use only'

What car is it?

 

[PoorOwner]

for offroad use only - so is alot of stuff we put on ours cars right
1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S
I just heard maybe I can buy a new seat belt from the dealer.. not sure though..
My retracting mechanism doesn't work, not really a webbing problem

 

[raffaelli]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SEAT...217694339QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250217694339

I buy from this seller often.

 

[amwalker]

Try the classifieds at club4ag.

 

[mattbal]

This is from the SCCA website

The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and supported above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of twenty (20) degrees with the horizontal. The seat itself, or anything added only to the seat shall not be considered a suitable guide. Guides must be a part of the roll cage or a part of the car structure.


and here is the link to the entire rule book. the harness stuff is covered on Page 79
http://www.scca.org/documents/Club Rules/GCR2008.pdf

Hope this helps

Matt Bal

 

[PoorOwner]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SEAT...217694339QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250217694339

I buy from this seller often.

Interesting, have you bought seat belts from this seller in particular?

Same part # for 40 years make of corollas eh??

 

[zj96sc]

my understanding has always been that a standard belt will allow you to move out from under the belt if the roof is crushing in, whereas a harness will keep you from submarining (kind of the point of a harness) so you should have a roll cage to keep the roof structure from encroaching the driver area.

 

[Vicegrip]

my understanding has always been that a standard belt will allow you to move out from under the belt if the roof is crushing in, whereas a harness will keep you from submarining (kind of the point of a harness) so you should have a roll cage to keep the roof structure from encroaching the driver area.

If you ever get caught in a car crusher that is slowly flatting the roof you are right. In a roof deforming accident the energy that is trying to deform the roof is acting equally on you as well trying to slam you into the roof. You can't duck or slump down the G force is trying to slam you in a blinding flash of violence into the roof. The roof does not gently push you down out of the way, you strike it. No one has the strength to resist even 40 Gs. A 30 mph speed delta can easily produce a 40 G pulse spike. During an impact of sizable amount you are a rag doll and have no ability to influence the outcome. In fact the best thing to do when you know you are going to hit something hard is to pull your arms to your chest and you feet away from the pedals. Helps prevent you from breaking your hands, feet and ankles.

Think of a potato loose in a metal bucket. Kick it hard. Dent in bucket splatted spud inside. Now duct tape a potato tight in center of bucket. Kick bucket, same dent, spud still OK to bake.

The primary point of a seat and harness system is to reduce your body's movement during a hit. Less movement the better. A good seat and harness system can save you from G pulses so high your arms get dislocated or detached. you are far more likely to get in a wreck that does not have any roof deformation than in one that does. A roll bar might be a detriment to driving without a helmet as in street driving. Street? A good seat and belt system. Track? All of the above and a good cage.

Many race groups have banned 4 point systems. 5 point or better is standard now.

 

[raffaelli]

Interesting, have you bought seat belts from this seller in particular?

Same part # for 40 years make of corollas eh??

Nope, have not purchased seat belts. I have purchased lots of parts that are currently on my racecar and in a stock pile over the garage.f

 

[raffaelli]

Any luck with this?

 

[zj96sc]

If you ever get caught in a car crusher that is slowly flatting the roof you are right. In a roof deforming accident the energy that is trying to deform the roof is acting equally on you as well trying to slam you into the roof. You can't duck or slump down the G force is trying to slam you in a blinding flash of violence into the roof. The roof does not gently push you down out of the way, you strike it. No one has the strength to resist even 40 Gs. A 30 mph speed delta can easily produce a 40 G pulse spike. During an impact of sizable amount you are a rag doll and have no ability to influence the outcome. In fact the best thing to do when you know you are going to hit something hard is to pull your arms to your chest and you feet away from the pedals. Helps prevent you from breaking your hands, feet and ankles.

Think of a potato loose in a metal bucket. Kick it hard. Dent in bucket splatted spud inside. Now duct tape a potato tight in center of bucket. Kick bucket, same dent, spud still OK to bake.

The primary point of a seat and harness system is to reduce your body's movement during a hit. Less movement the better. A good seat and harness system can save you from G pulses so high your arms get dislocated or detached. you are far more likely to get in a wreck that does not have any roof deformation than in one that does. A roll bar might be a detriment to driving without a helmet as in street driving. Street? A good seat and belt system. Track? All of the above and a good cage.

Many race groups have banned 4 point systems. 5 point or better is standard now.

Yeah, I understand physics. However, hitting the roof with your head isn't going to stop the roof for good. You weigh less than whatever is crushing the roof against you. So, you slam your head into the roof, then the roof keeps encroaching into the passenger cabin, your submarine belt stops you, and that roof is gonna keep going. No 5th point without a rollbar, end of story.

 

[PoorOwner]

Thanks for all the advice.. I think I am going to source a OEM 3 point belt.

I found out someone is complaining about the Ebay one, being somewhat universal and the buckle part sticks out too far in a different year corolla, and also requires removing the B pillar trim to fit. So I am holding out on the purchase until I get some more measurements.

 

[PoorOwner]

Someone who's bought the Ebay belt is kind enough to send me a picture.. he is not happy with it as it sticks out way too far, must be like under your armpit !!

I am trying to find out the manufacturer and ask them if there is a shorter buckle available.