Rack and Pinion on a straight axle

[41ratrod]

I'm building a 46 International KB2 pickup and putting a rack and pinion steering on it . Will it be ok to weld the mounting brackets to the I beam? I know you can cut the I beam and weld them back together. the brackets I'm making will be 2in. square tubing cut to fit in the axle . Haven't made anything yet just wondering.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

What's the steering linkage going to look like from the column to the axle?

 

[Walkers]

I would think that would be a horrible idea. Weld the brackets on the frame and keep the r&p stationary and let the flexible linkages take up the motion.

 

[41ratrod]

there will be a slide shaft in line off the r@p to take up the movement in the axle .

 

[41ratrod]

What's the steering linkage going to look like from the column to the axle?

I havn't got there yet still in the planning.

 

[41ratrod]

What's the steering linkage going to look like from the column to the axle?

I haven't got there yet still in the planning I don't have the cab in place yet.

 

[joe49]

Speedway rack and pinion cross steer.

 

[iagsxr]

Speedway rack and pinion cross steer.

Yeah that's meant to be mounted to the left frame rail and a tie rod attached to the right spindle. It still has bump but the tie rod's so long it minimizes it.

An axle mounted rack sounds like a horrible idea. I'm trying to think if I've ever seen an application where the steering box moves with the suspension.

 

[Bopbop]

I second the rack that joe49 and lagsxr provided the link to. I have helped install 2 of these. one on a 42 Chevy street rod truck with a front end setup based on a 32 ford drop axle. The second on a 32 ford street rod. The unit bolts to an after market weld on bracket that is designed for the Vega steering box. This was an easy swap.
As for welding brackets to the stock axle I see lots of trouble.

 

[Terra Nova]

Saw a similar setup to what the OP is describing at a car show on a lifted truck. Had a slip yoke of sorts in the linkage between the column and rack. Looked like a massive hackjob and I suspect it killed a bus load of nuns on the way home from the show.

Question is why? What's the goal?

 

[APEowner]

Mounting the rack directly to the axle would eliminate bump steer but at the cost of excess unsprung weight, harsh vibrations through the steering column and sketchy steering column design. The downsides far outweigh the one benefit. The Speedway Cross Steer rack is a good solution if you want a rack and pinion and the truck is going to be fairly light weight when it's done. Otherwise I'd be looking at a conventional power steering box, cross steer setup.

 

[backwoods96]

We run them that way on sprintcars & modifieds w? a slip jolnt on steering shaft - works well no bump steer -

 

[APEowner]

We run them that way on sprintcars & modifieds w? a slip jolnt on steering shaft - works well no bump steer -

Yup. That's a thing and, I've seen that same setup on a light weight streetrod. I'm still not convinced that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, particularly in a straight axle pickup.

 

[Mr.N]

I'm building a 46 International KB2 pickup and putting a rack and pinion steering on it .

So your not doing a return to stock build... What are you building it for?
Slammed and low to the ground?
4x4 to drive off road?
Going to racing and need better steering than the Saginaw steering sector?
Drive to the mall and look good?

 

[41ratrod]

Just a street truck the Chevy LS Engine is in the way for a steering box . Will be lowered, On the Old International forum they talked about R@P on the trucks but no one said how they mounted them.

 

[csp]

Just a street truck the Chevy LS Engine is in the way for a steering box.

Put the steering box on the outside of the frame rail, like IH Scouts or late 70s Ford did. The first Toyota IFS 4x4s also had this type of setup.

 

[kerrynzl]

I'm building a 46 International KB2 pickup and putting a rack and pinion steering on it . Will it be ok to weld the mounting brackets to the I beam? I know you can cut the I beam and weld them back together. the brackets I'm making will be 2in. square tubing cut to fit in the axle . Haven't made anything yet just wondering.

Do not do that........never mount a rack to the axle.
Uneven bumps transfer into steering column/wheel as rotation.[you wont get bump steer but the wheel will snap back at you]

Use a steering box converted to cross steer [with a panhard bar running parallel with the drag link]

 

[sz0k30]

Check out "Checkered Racing" website. I have a 57 Chevy "Gasser". It has one of their front end conversion kits on it. It comes with a Mustang II manual rack & pinion welded to the tube front axle.

So don't listen to the guys that say it can't or shouldn't be done.

 

[Jazz1]

I'm building a 46 International KB2 pickup and putting a rack and pinion steering on it . Will it be ok to weld the mounting brackets to the I beam? I know you can cut the I beam and weld them back together. the brackets I'm making will be 2in. square tubing cut to fit in the axle . Haven't made anything yet just wondering.

Bill Flock I think had pictures how he installed rack and pinion with straight axle on the OLD IHC forum..he‘s on the Facebook International K KB forum..He also fabbed disc brake bracket for his K2 while installing Dodge Omni R&P steering rack.

I’m lazy, installed a Fatman M11 IFS on my ‘41 K1 which drops front end about 4”,,dropped spindles would have had bumper in the gravel.

 

[Mr.N]

Just a street truck the Chevy LS Engine is in the way for a steering box .

There is a Saginaw steer sector that will work for your truck, a better solution.
Also options to add another u-joint to the steering sharf, it's not that uncommon.

That said, do what you want. To do it right will take homework.

 

[41ratrod]

thanks for the replys guys still in the planning, ones I get the transmission from the shop I'll get back to it .

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

It's a poor idea at best, and I really don't see how it would make running a steering shaft any easy easier than a box mounted outside of the frame.

 

[kabinenroller]

Check out "Checkered Racing" website. I have a 57 Chevy "Gasser". It has one of their front end conversion kits on it. It comes with a Mustang II manual rack & pinion welded to the tube front axle.

So don't listen to the guys that say it can't or shouldn't be done.

I along with many others disagree with the above statement.

A rack mounted to an tube or beam axle will steer, but it is definitely not the best route. ( terrible bump steer and less than desirable connection to the steering column) Remember: KISS- keep it simple stupid, use a steering box and a drag link just like the factory did. No factory ever used a rack with a “straight” axle.
If there is no room for a conventional box, make room, it can be done. No one ever said building a (correctly) modified vehicle was easy. Think!

 

[kerrynzl]

Check out "Checkered Racing" website. I have a 57 Chevy "Gasser". It has one of their front end conversion kits on it. It comes with a Mustang II manual rack & pinion welded to the tube front axle.

So don't listen to the guys that say it can't or shouldn't be done.

It can be done , doesn't mean it should be done.
Mounting a rack onto a Beam axle fits into the same category as using parallel ladder bars on the rear.
You can live with it in straight line drag racing.

But is totally unacceptable on the street where there are uneven surfaces and body roll.

Google "Chequered Racing reviews"

The OP hasn't even started this part of his build yet, so why steer him down the path of destruction when it is much easier to give him good advice.

 

[41ratrod]

kerrynzl thank you

 

[kerrynzl]

kerrynzl thank you

I appreciate the gratitude.

Seeing that you are really early into a swap......Have you considered a complete frame swap to use as a daily driver pickup

Most people can easily perform an engine swap , but when it comes to suspension, steering and brakes they can get out of their depth.

The factories have done all "hard yards" for you.
People perform S10 frame swaps a lot.
If you jump over to the HAMB, apparently a Dodge Dakota frame is the hot setup for a KB.

I would be confident to say a whole rolling frame from a Dakota will be a lot cheaper than just a Mustang II aftermarket or Hot Rod front suspension.
If you can get your pickup to handle/drive like a 90's+ pickup it will be pleasant to live with.

Welding/bolting body mount brackets to a frame is a lot easier than adapting steering and brakes etc [where brake bias, bump steer, anti dive, and camber gain etc need to be considered]

 

[willymakeit]

Not going to say yes or no on rack.
My 56 F100 is cross steered using a Saginaw steering box from 65 Chevy. Works well, and has antiroll bars from Bronco 2.
What to watch is suspension clearance. If cross steering I would add a pan hard bar to keep steering from pushing sideways on springs.

 

[41ratrod]

I'm limited on money
[ i've drag race for nine years, and built and restored cars } and have never ed took money out of the saving account or from the bills they always came first. Lots of overtime at work and flipping cars . Put I'm retired how 69 and working on limit. I do have a 1965 triumph spitfire that I restored that I may sale , I'm just not ready to part with it yet. Last year I sold my 41 Ford Sedan 57 Hillman Husky street gasser,76 Fiat Spitfire, and a 77 Mercedes 350sl . 5 years ago I put my brothers 46 International on a Dodge pickup frame 318 auto trans and the repired his 1930 Dodge Brothers car. so I THANK I know what I'm doing? So I thought some of the welders out there may know if welding on the axle was ok or not. Putting a R@P on a straight axle is getting to be popular thing now days.

 

[kerrynzl]

Putting a R@P on a straight axle is getting to be popular thing now days.

Popular because it is the lazy way to do it. And they don't have the brains to figure out bump steer
It eliminates "bump steer" which is a change in toe going over bumps
Do not confuse this with steering angle changes

If there is 5° of body roll you get 5° of steering wheel angle change [steering wheel kick-back]
If you front track is 54" wide and the RH wheel goes over a 3" bump, the steering wheel will kick-back 3.2° to the left.
If you had the strength to hold the steering wheel straight, the front wheels will turn into the direction of the bump.

Don't even consider this "hack job" method of method of mounting a rack

 

[dcubb]

Mack did it for quite a few years on some of their trucks. Does that mean that Mack was a "Hack" ? LOL
But it was a gearbox, not a rack and pinion.

 

[Mr.N]

Mack did it for quite a few years on some of their trucks. Does that mean that Mack was a "Hack" ? LOL
But it was a gearbox, not a rack and pinion.

I am guessing Mack had real engineers design it, so not a hack.

Having limited info and wanting to go cheap without formal education, yeah Hack.

 

[isb cornbinder]

This is what I built for a 1952 L110 IHC 4X4 conversion.(straight axle) It works really well. The adapter plate ties the frame components together. The adapter plate uses OEM rivet holes for mounting.

 

[kerrynzl]

I am guessing Mack had real engineers design it, so not a hack.

Having limited info and wanting to go cheap without formal education, yeah Hack.

The B75 Mack steering box was rotated so the steering input [worm] was vertical and the output [sector] was horizontal.
It had a universal joint directly at the box to allow for any axle articulation , and a splined column for up/down movement.

It is not applicable here unless the OP was building a Cabover [and he rotated the R&P so the pinion was vertical]


The engineering required to make this feasible would be an exercise in futility.

 

[Wrench97]

The B75 Mack steering box was rotated so the steering input [worm] was vertical and the output [sector] was horizontal.
It had a universal joint directly at the box to allow for any axle articulation , and a splined column for up/down movement.

It is not applicable here unless the OP was building a Cabover [and he rotated the R&P so the pinion was vertical]


The engineering required to make this feasible would be an exercise in futility.

That Superliner steering setup was a nightmare in driver complaints.

 

[iagsxr]

^^^ I imagine it was. If nothing else that's a ton of angle in that knuckle.

 

[joe49]

Mack did it for quite a few years on some of their trucks. Does that mean that Mack was a "Hack" ? LOL
But it was a gearbox, not a rack and pinion.

Yes, they did and then changed back. Should be noted this was back during slow truck days.