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radiant advice wanted.....please

fivelitreford

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Aug 28, 2011
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1
I am in Ohio and cold weather is just around the corner, need to get radiant floor heat finished! Pex is in concrete and I am not sure how I should heat the water? I have read so many different opinions I dont know what is best. I really would like to know difference between tank style vs tankless, gas vs electric.....building is 36x40 divided into 3 zones.
Thanks
 
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HoosierBuddy

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May 9, 2006
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Southern Indiana
If you have natural gas, it's going to be 3 to 4 times cheaper than electric at current market rates. Propane might be 1/2 as much as electric (close to twice natural now).

I think I'd go gas for sure.

Tanked and tankless? The tank style units are going to take up a lot more floor space and are cheaper. The tankless styles may take up almost no floor space (my tankless boiler hangs on the wall) and are generally much more efficient (say 92% vs 80%) than a tank style model. They also cost a lot more.

If you've got the budget and natural gas available, a fully condensing, modulating, tankless boiler would be my suggestion. It's a lot of up front expense, but it will save you money over the long haul. Mine has been (mostly) trouble free. I went with a Trinity Ti150, but there are many other similar units on the market that will also work fine.

Phil
 

KenB

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Dec 8, 2008
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Pittsburgh, PA
If you haven't used oxygen barrier PEX, you should use a non-ferrous boiler and bronze circulating pump to avoid rust contamination. I have a 3-loop closed system using a gas fired Takagi T-K3 and it keeps my 30x40 building comfortable all winter here in SW PA.

Ken
 

redrunner

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Oct 14, 2010
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101
Location
NW Iowa
I built one using a tankless heater. It worked great. I plan on building one for my current build next summer. I only have electric. I get a cheaper rate going only electric in the new building.
 

overdriv

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Jul 26, 2010
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Central IL
I heat a 36X30X14 addition to my existing 24X30 garage/shop with a 40 Gal WH on 5 loops/1 zone. The new part keeps the old part just as warm, except for the floor. I put it in service on Feb. 1st 2011, so I really don't have much cost history yet. My system is very simple and there are pictures of on this board if interested.

I also get domestic hot water from it year round which is used very little. Washing hands in the rest room is about all.
 
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6th Gear

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Sep 17, 2008
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261
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Ohio
I went with a Takagi Jr. tankless for my radiant and couldn't be happier. I have 32x40x12 pole barn with R19 walls R30 ceiling and kept the temp in the low 40's last winter. I could be out there for hours at a time and the heat never kicked on unless I opened the garage door. We had just switched to nat gas last fall so I don't have a before/after comparison on the gas bill.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Aug 4, 2011
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837
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Minneapolis
1st a proper heat loaod. Then choose a condensing appliance. Water heaters lack essential controls and boilers are not referred to as tankless, rather low-mass. If you use a tank style water heater you must mix the return or suffer short lived WH.
There is no difference in the combustion efficiency from tankless to tank style water heater, but the tank water heater will usually serve many small zones better and Combi WH and space heating with appriate trim.
 

koditten

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Apr 10, 2008
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Midland, Michigan
Why not use a low mass conventional boiler? After you get a proper heat load calculated, you will know exactly how many BTU's you really need, then be able to size accordingly. I have a boiler heating the water for my floor heat system. This is what boilers are designed for, to heat water constantly. You won't wonder if you are using the proper heat source for your system if you use a boiler. I opted for a non-condensing boiler with a standing pilot light. The system is very symple. You have a gas valve, a thermocouple and a relay, not much more than that can go wrong. I could have opted for one of the newer condensing boilers that tout the 90%+ efficiency, but I figured after all the extra costs for controls and special venting reqirements of these boilers, I would be long dead before I got my money back in gas savings. 87% vs 92% is'nt a big number in gas savings when I set the thermostat below 50*. Besides, with opening and closing the overhead doors, your high efficient boiler numbers really don't apply any more. These are just my opinions, others are welcome educate me they like.
 

trythis

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Dec 6, 2009
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348
Location
st louis
I was going to go for radiant in my shop when I replaced the crappy floor. It will be a while till we can afford a new floor, and the one we have will work for a while. in the mean time, I installed an overhead radiant tube heater. It was much cheaper than the tubing/boiler system and works amazingly well. It heats like a floor radiant system, but when its on it feels better ,even at 50. We have radiant in the house, and it is nice, but costly to install. With the tube heater its like having a sun over your head and recovery from a door being open is not an issue. Everything in the room is radiating heat already. A dual stage unit can crank out some serious heat and use low heat for constant temps.

You might look into it as an alternative to in floor radiant. I have found it better for workshop space than a floor tubing because of of the sun like feel, catch up speed, the warm tables, tools, and floor.
Floor radiant, on top of the cost also has the problem of bolting stuff into the floor, and not being able to make quick changes in temps. It also takes up valuable floor space where the tube heaters are 100% on the ceiling.


With a 12' ceiling in the middle, your shop will be just right for one.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Aug 4, 2011
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837
Location
Minneapolis
We install all sorts of radiant systems. Both koditten and trythis make very valid points.

If you can't afford a full blown radiant floor with condensing boiler for your shop, then a low-mass (copper, non-condensing, atmospheric) boiler is a good choice and very popular in the southwest. Of course a cast iron boiler will work very well also but extra care must be taken to make sure that non-condensing boilers don't condense. This means keeping the water in the boiler hot. This also means you will have a hot (over 350°F stack) and you will need combustion air (free and open duct coming from outside to the boiler within one foot of the floor). Combustion air is particularly critical in the unusually tight typical garage or shed.

Infrared is more comfortable and efficient than any forced air unit heater. We install them when ever we are too late to install radiant floor tubing. Infrared is radiant heaters are "almost" sealed combustion (properly installed, combustion air is drawn in from one tube and exhausted post-combustion in another) and are about 82% efficient. New, smaller (even residential size) infrared tube heaters are now available for garage with ceilings as low as 8 feet.

Though both options are viable and cost efficient, nothing can compare to a slab-on-grade installation or hydronic radiant floor PEX tubing coupled with a fully condensing, PVC vented 95%AFUE boiler with built-in outdoor reset.

The fuel savings are more than the AFUE imply as the temperatures needed to heat a properly insulated pole shed or steel building (garage) are typically below body temperature and keep the condensing boiler in continuous sustained flue gas condensation and 100°F flue temperatures.

If you add up these facts, keeping in mind that all high efficiency condensing boiler are sealed combustion, direct meaning all combustion air is pulled in from outside and vented the same without open flame fire hazards or bringing unconditioned air in and exhausting conditioned air out through a conventional chimney, well...

Sealed combustion boilers are not affected by ventilation equipment...

I could go on.

Now koditten has another valid point about indoor design temperature, and he is correct when he states that maintaining 50° in most garages, in most climates, doesn't cost as much as say keeping it at 70. It is all about the temperature differential (outside design vs. inside design), insulation and ventilation.

One more point and that is one of conservation. No fossil fuel fired heating appliance pollutes less or has a lower carbon footprint than a condensing boiler. Low SOx, low NOx and half the CO2 of fuel oil for instance all the acid rains inside the boiler and down the drain.

I say, insulate and condensate.
 
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