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radiant bragging post

anthony666

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Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
987
Location
kirkfield ontario
here's some of my radiant/near boiler work .. posting it because i figure maybe you guys would appreciate some of the work that goes into building these things;

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jlckmj

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Dec 7, 2009
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SE Wiscosin
Subcribed= Hopefully others will ad their success stories to this post.

It looks like you have been dong this for a while, so I have to ask, what would you do to design a system for lets say 800 - 1,000 sq foot. How many loops, what type of heater, what type of pump, etc.

I am not talking concrete and insulation, anyone can find what is needed there, it's the hardware that is hard to figure out.

"JUST THE BASIC IN FLOOR HEAT SYSTEM, one that is CHEAP TO INSTALL AND SIMPLE TO MAINTAIN, AND WORKS, no frills, just something to meet the basic needs of the DIY garage junkie to make working in the garage during the winter a little more enjoyable.

I like what "fastback" has done, more on the order of his system, not one of the mega dollar systems that would cost $4K to $5K by the time you are finished. I would hang a modine or get a wood burner before I would (could) spend that kind of money.

Thanks, Jim
 
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anthony666

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Dec 29, 2007
Messages
987
Location
kirkfield ontario
first thing i have to say is radiant isn't for everyone, it's a commitment .. you can't flick a switch and be instantly warm, it takes days to raise a slab to temperature, so if you're not spending a LOT of time in your workshop look at something else .. so, here's a very basic radiant overview

electrically heated water is NOT an option .. hot water tanks are too expensive to operate .. so condensing natural gas or propane, geothermal heat pumps, oil or a wood fueled boiler are your best alternatives and you really can't have too much insulation .. ng is the best option if available in your area .. propane is a bit more expensive to operate and has to be trucked in usually and stored in expensive tanks .. oil is expensive because they aren't making dinosaurs anymore .. geothermal is insanely ecomonical to operate, but is a frighteningly high buy in .. wood is cheap, but labor intensive and requires a lot of attention, it's like being married .. i have a wood boiler .. you also can preheat water with a solar panel (actually very easy to build yourself)

the simplest no nonsense FUNCTIONAL way to pipe your system is reverse return, like this diagram borrowed via google

resize_Reverse%20return%20radiator%20piping.jpg


the first loop gets the it's hot water first and returns last .. without getting into the science involved, this works great, period and only requires one pump to do the job

when water is heated it expands, so you have to give it somewhere to go or it's going to pop your t&p valve .. ergo you must have an expansion tank

you will also need to remove air from your system .. all systems have air in them, it's a fact of life .. anyone that's ever farted in the tub knows air rises so you need to put your air eliminator at the highest possible point in the system .. please don't cheap out on your air eliminator; air + water + heat = rust, which equals short boiler life, short pump life etc etc .. if we take one element out of the equation we're golden, air is the one thing we can definitely do without

pumps work by creating a low inlet pressure and a high out pressure, water will move to try and equalize the pressures and so create flow .. air comes out of suspension easiest in low pressure areas, so the best spot is as near as possible to the pump inlet .. this is also the best spot for your expansion tank, which is why air eliminators are tapped at the bottom for expansion tanks

next thing; you CANNOT put regular household pex in a radiant system .. you have to use heat pex, it has an oxygen barrier that stops oxygen molecules from entering your system

you're gonna need to fill your system with water to carry the heat around .. in the trade we have things called boiler drain valves, basically a tap with a garden hose thread on it .. if you tee off 2 of these together somewhere in your piping, with a ball valve between them, you can close the ball valve and force water in one side and flush out all the air from the other without allowing it back in .. air is your enemy

now, to your specific question, i would build 3 loops into the floor, 6 inch spacing around the perimeter and 12 inch spaces filling in with the runs along the longest length to cut down on the amount of bends .. bends are trouble spots where kinks happen and where air and crud can gather .. reverse return with a mixing valve to knock the inlet temp down ..one grundfos 1558 pump (cheap and reliable, but high quality) and a slab sensor hooked up to a 24volt thermostat .. the choice of heater is all yours sir

i'm also a huge believer in cleaning the water you put into the system .. i use a flush cart i built to fill the systems i put together with a cartridge filter on the return line to catch flux and bits of solder and whatever else has found it's way in during construction

by the way, ive built radiant systems with $200.000 price tags .. 5 grand is getting off light :)

hope that helps jim :beer:
 
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anthony666

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Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
987
Location
kirkfield ontario
Why the 2 boilers ?

simple answer; redundancy

this house was fully hydronic; 5000 sq foot infloor basement, a bunch of zones of over pour upstairs in the kitchen and the bathrooms, 2 massive air handlers and an indirect hot water tank .. if one boiler went down there's a backup .. they also cycled the load every other day one runs pretty hard and the other one does any catch up during peak demand times

i will try and find something graphic together to show you guys .. lemme see what i can find
 

HoosierBuddy

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Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
2,936
Location
Southern Indiana
I went with an NTI boiler as well. After 5 1/2 years the only maintenance has been the recommended burner cleanout (every other year) and one ignitor replacement.

If I were you, I'd have a spare ignitor on hand. You'll need it eventually. I was lucky enough that an HVAC buddy had one close enough to right that it would work. The correct one took a couple of days to get in.

Now I've got the spare sitting next to the boiler.

Phil
 
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anthony666

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Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
987
Location
kirkfield ontario
good choice phil, i'd equate an NTI boiler to a diesel pick up truck, a real workhorse if you keep up the maintainance .. ive put in lots of those suckers and they haven't given me any problems
 
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86turbodsl

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Jul 1, 2005
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Michigan
Beautiful job. Looks very pro, if you're not one already. I did hydronic in my shop and house. Expensive, but the heat is unparalleled.
 

gatchel

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Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
672
Location
West of King of Prussia, PA
Your work is immaculate. Keep up the pics. They make me happy.


If I had the scratch, I'd have that much copper in my setup just so I could go there and stare at it.

I also love the amount of valves and drains you use. Most people don't understand the value of installing something you may only have to use once.

+1 on the solar interest...
 
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overdriv

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Jul 26, 2010
Messages
189
Location
Central IL
After looking at some of these installations I almost hate to post a picture of mine. It is as simple as it gets and works really well.

My advice to anyone wanting to do it yourself for simple garage heating with one zone, don't stress out on all the different advice you are going to get.

Keep it simple.

Here is my heating installation integrated with my rest room.
 

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[email protected]

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Jun 12, 2012
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Location
Chalfont, PA
Amazing work!

I'm installing a system in my home and trying to learn as much as possible. Is there a reason you mounted the cold (return) manifold above the hot (source) manifold? The manifolds I purchased have the hot above the cold.
 
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