Radiant Floor heat insulation and pex pricing

[mggreen]

Well, working on getting my shop (40x64x16) to the next phase with pouring my concrete. I know I'll be pissed if I don't put radiant floor heat in. I hear too many guys on this board tell us it's the only way to go, and I believe it. But as many have said it is expensive with upfront cost. I will probably be in the shop most days in the winter for part of the day and I definitely don't want it freezing in there so I feel the expense is justified. ( I hope) I plan on having a propane boiler. Well I said all of this to tell you this.
I found some Amish 65 miles from me that sell the Creatherm insulation board ($1.41) /sq.ft. For 2 inch thick. The 1/2 inch pex tubing is ($.34) /sq.ft and they will deliver, install, and pressure check for ($.50)/ sq.ft. Then I can install the rest at a later date. So thats $5760.00 for my building, I didn't think that was too bad. What do you guys think?

 

[bsg]

Price doesn't sound too bad, but you could save a lot by doing the install yourself.
I built a 50' x 72' and have about $3500 in 2" insulation wire mesh and 3600' of Pex tubing and a manifold.

Kevin

 

[mggreen]

bsg, how long ago was this? $ 1280 for delivery, install, and pressure check. What kind of insulation board did you use?

 

[bsg]

bsg, how long ago was this? $ 1280 for delivery, install, and pressure check. What kind of insulation board did you use?

November 2013......

Here's where I bought my insulation from;

http://www.williamsinsulationinc.com/

And this is where I bought all my Pex supplies,

http://www.blueridgecompany.com/

My concrete guy put the vapor barrier, foam and wire mesh down, that work was included in the $3.50 per square foot price.
The slab is 6" thick and thicker for my hoists and jib crane.

I did the Pex install in a single day with help from friends, it was a lot of work but well worth it.

Kevin

 

[mggreen]

Not feeling as good about my price now. That's pretty good. Are you happy with how it's heating your building?

 

[westgateblvd]

Most major home centers like Menard's, Home Depot, and others sell kits for the DIY person. The PEX I can get up here has a aluminum winding in it. Regular PEX has a mind of it's own. with the aluminum winding in it. You can bend it and it stays. In a closed system you will need a boiler, and pump. In the North, or some place where it could get to freezing temps I would run glycol ( anti-freeze ) threw the lines. You may also need a manifold that would have as many outlets that you would need for different areas. Say you had a 3-stall garage. If you were just going to be working in one stall.. You wouldn't want your heat going to the other two stalls. That is where the manifold comes in. Just turn the valve to the area where you want the heat.. I am also going to have in floor heat. i might go with a small hot water heater in a closed system with a pump and manifold. That would be my boiler. For a 26 x 30' garage I might only have a few gallons of anti freeze in the tubing. I was also going to run one of my loops under the apron in front of the garage door. We have snow and ice up here, and this would keep the apron clear. There are a couple of driveways I have seen in town that are heated as well.

 

[Demkog]

I am cheep in nature but I am willing to spend money on what I want so when it came to building my shop I did some looking for my supply. This is what I ended up with.

I did my 26 x 100 shop I got all my pluming stuff from pexsupply.com 1000-1200 about in tubing and manifold, pump get the taco radiant pump with the modulating flow it does work and is not much more money. I went with 5/8 tubing it was a bit unruly but it allowed 300' runs with less head pressure. The ½ witch a lot of people told me to go with would have needed more loops, it probably would have been more consistent heat and would be a better choice in a house but in the shop I was ok with a small temp variant. A few buddies and I put the foam bard in and the tubing in a day. Use a propane torch to soften the tubing in the bends don’t touch the pex with the flame, filling it with hot water also helps and keeps it in place when poring the concrete.

My insulation from a company that demos industrial buildings, and by far my largest savings. It was 2" extruded blue dow board with a 1/4 of concrete on it and I got literally a tractor truck load of it and iso boards to insulate the whole place for $1500 floors and walls. Look for a place like this the insulation still works.

My heater is a rinnai on demand hot water heater for 900. 7.5 gal per min I used some times I think I should have gone a step bigger but everything works well my head pressure is a little higer then I would want because of the heater and the 9 glp would work better even though I would only need 7 gpm. The propane boiler is the Right way to go but my hot water heater has worked for 5 years and is much less in price and is 90% efficient. If I brake it is cheap enough just to go by a new one for the next 5 years.
It’s not the most fun job but you can do it is not that hard and it does not have to be perfect I have 8 loops in my shop and I know one side of my shop is a few degree warmer than the other. It would bother me in my house but in the shop I am ok with it.

I would defiantly look for a place like I found for the foam board
https://hartford.craigslist.org/mad/4905266506.html
This is in my area but maybe they will know someone out your way. A huge savings I think I have $700 in insulation under my concrete 2600 square feet much less then new.

Sorry for the long post hope it helps. I love my feet being warm and lying down on the concrete is not bad at all. Very happy with the results of but heating system and will never pour concrete without pex under it.

 

[Rookie2]

If you can do it your self ,2" Dow board has an R-10 vs an R-6 with Creatherm and you will need wire mesh to tie the pex to.
1) roll and compact the sub base.
2) Vapor barrier
3) 2" dow board plus 24" vertical around the perimeter of the slab.
4) 6"x6" wire mesh
5) 1/2" pex , I used 5/8" HEPEX (o-2 barrier)
6) fibermesh (optional)
7) Keep the concrete wet for days or seal it then cut it asap.

now after all this expense and work you have to make the walls airtight and insulate them and overhead.

 

[bsg]

Not feeling as good about my price now. That's pretty good. Are you happy with how it's heating your building?

Don't have heat yet, was sick most of last year and everything was put on hold.

Hopefully this year I can finish, depends on my health.

Kevin

 

[HammerMechanic]

The insulation is the big pill to swallow up front, the pex is minor. But you only have 1 chance to do it.
I figure sometime down the road I will install the heat. But at least all the tubes and insulation are done and waiting.

 

[jrb2]

I have a 40X64 also and I used HeatCrete foam and 2,700 ft of pex. The Heatcrete holds the pex and I was able to do most of it myself. It cost about $5,300 for the foam and pex, which I thought was pretty pricey, but it was easy and fast.

 

[rburke65]

I don't think the aluminum lined pex is recommended for the radiant heat.....

 

[goforride57]

I purchased used 2" Dow foam board. I think I paid 800 bucks for all the sheets. I paid 250 a roll for the oxygen barrier pex. So $1800 for 36'x40' floor. I think I could have gotten a better deal on the Internet for the pex.

 

[bloomingtonmike]

RHT-PB-2700-B-1/2 at blueridecompany is $1025
includes:
3) 12-900B pex tubing
1) 9 Port High Flow manifold (HF-9)
18) Polymer elbows (90-12)
1) Pressure test kit (PT M)
3) Wire ties (WT-6-1000)
1) Wire tie tool
1) Tubing cutter
FREE SHIPPING

I put that setup in my 5" concrete

I used HD XPS pink and blue found on craigslist. I souced that before even starting the building finding the foam last summer as I could find it. $5 a sheet for 1.5" foamular 250 sheets from one guy and $5 a sheet for .5" blue lowes sheets. This price will vary - that guy 1.5" could have got $10 a sheet from me lol.

I used 10mil Husky/Home Depot branded 20'X100' rolls found on ebay. Two rolls at $100ea shipped. Menards might have 6mil cheaper than that.

I bought 6 rolls of Tyvek tape for $50 on ebay. The 7th we needed was $12 locally.

I sourced these awesome concrete chairs www.meshups.com that spring back up when you walk on the mesh - like a bedspring. They were awesome. 1/2" pex is 5/8 OD so this put the pex top at 2.25" or so in my 5" concrete. They cut the concrete at 1.5" deep and I had the pex under air pressure the entire time. I verified the mesh and pex were perfect height and did pop back up while they were pouring the floor and walking on it. This was the first time the crew had ever used them and they thought they were awesome.

Have your concrete guy bid the install. Here is how my Bloomington IL concrete bid worked out:

Site prepped before the building - removing sod and leveling site
All the recycled asphalt needed for under the pad and porch and the compaction
40X64X5" concrete floor pad
12X24X5" concrete porch pad
6X6 square mesh
chairs - www.meshups.com
Install of vapor barrier, foam, mesh, pex lines ran and everthing tied
Pour
$9800 or $3.44 a sq

I and another buddy helped the concrete crew on the foam install step day - they had 4 guys in the crew help plus us two and we worked about 12 hours total cause I am slow; this was two weeks before concrete.

Meshup chairs me and two guys put in in 2 hours the day before the concrete at 12' on center. I think we used 3 or 4 boxes but I am not 100% remembering for sure. The meshup folks will get you the size and qty you need. When they are installed they have a very sold snap in place. They really were awesome but I dont know what the concrete guys paid for them individually. We put them after everything was done and had to pull up mesh and pex that was all tied and snap them in underneath at 12' on center. Doable and I am not sure doing it before pex was done would have made pex harder or easier. to nstall. Tieing pex would have been easier. Meshups puts them on the mesh before mesh is put down in their video - that woudl have made that step easire for sure.

Also anothe tip - increase the bend radiues in your wire tie tool just a bit. I had an old one in the toolbox we also used and it was 10X better than the blueridge supplied tool because the end was a bit different.

 

[mggreen]

Thanks for all the replies gentleman. Well I have been looking for some used 2inch styrofoam, but no luck here locally yet or within decent driving distance. I do have some 1 inch and some 1 1/2 styrofoam, some 4x8s and some a little longer, and some just pieces that were ripped in half. I was going to use it to fill in between purlins on the walls and spray foam it. Not enough to do my floor. So I'll keep looking, it's going to be a few months before I pour the concrete. Something may show up, if not I know what new cost!
Demkog , Your Rinnai tankless water heater, how warm do you keep your shop and what kind of fuel do you use?

 

[Rookie2]

I'd call one of these guys ! and follow up to one of their customers.

http://monroemi.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=foam+insulation&srchType=T

 

[mggreen]

Thanks Rookie2, I did find a place today 75 miles from me that handles used styrofoam. All ready closed so I'll call again Monday. But I will contact those guys you listed also and see what I come up with. Thanks again

 

[Rookie2]

I have a video of my floor but its on 4track muncie, i mean 8 track......no its on VHS . Cave Man technology.

BTW: My floor layout was designed by an engineer at Energy Reductions, Pgh. Pa. he has since passed away but he used a progressive layout . 40x60 . 7x200' loops +- starting where the coldest part of the floor (walls) & (doors) with 6" spacing and progressing to 24" spacing in the center of the floor. works great.

 

[Demkog]

I keep my shop at 60 and it is on its lowest setting 98 a delta T of 32. The shop has no problems with heat till single digest then I have to turn the out temp up to 106-110. I run propane. wish I had natural gas.