? Radiant floor system from.......
- Thread starter blpcjpblp
- Start date
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...duct_6970_200337447_200337447&issearch=456331 $2400 for an electric boiler doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. There's a tab on the right side of the page where you can open up the installation manual, it describes how big a space you can heat with it.
'the epoxy floor guy'
Well-known member
YES, the boiler WOULD be big enough. BUT, You are paying a FORTUNE for this setup.
Here is the pricing for 'what' is included
SH-14 (the exact boiler in the pic) - $560
Circ pump (this is SS model prob Cast Iron in pkg-$115) You want SS-$316
Flanges for pump $43
SpiroVent - $99
Exp Tank - $29
Manifolds - $68x2
Temp gauges - $40
Pump Relay - $60
T-stat - $68 -
Grand TOTAL $1150 THIS IS ALL that is in the KIT!
$1351 - With SS Pump
If you have 1200 SF you need:
1500 lf Pex - 300' - 90 (x5) =450
TOTAL = $ 1801 + Misc Fittings and Shipping.
$2200 MAX for all.
YOU DO NOT get the stuff assembled as in the Pic.
Here is the pricing for 'what' is included
SH-14 (the exact boiler in the pic) - $560
Circ pump (this is SS model prob Cast Iron in pkg-$115) You want SS-$316
Flanges for pump $43
SpiroVent - $99
Exp Tank - $29
Manifolds - $68x2
Temp gauges - $40
Pump Relay - $60
T-stat - $68 -
Grand TOTAL $1150 THIS IS ALL that is in the KIT!
$1351 - With SS Pump
If you have 1200 SF you need:
1500 lf Pex - 300' - 90 (x5) =450
TOTAL = $ 1801 + Misc Fittings and Shipping.
$2200 MAX for all.
YOU DO NOT get the stuff assembled as in the Pic.
You are right. That is too much $ for what you are getting.
I have a couple of questions though.
Why the need for SS pump?
And can you provide a link for that price on the SH-14. (I think that is a SH-11 in the kit.) The lowest price I can find is about $760 for a SH-11.
Also .30 per foot on 02 barrier pex is good too. Where can I get that.
Thanks John
comp1892
Member
I am also going to be purchasing a boiler in the near future. Last price quote I received (early December) was $760 for either a SH-09 or SH-11. I would like to use the SH-11.
Chris
'the epoxy floor guy'
Well-known member
Dirty little secret...
BUY a RA-14 or RA-11
THEN purchase a HIGH LIMIT 120 degree limit switch.
this is the basic difference between the SH and RA models.
BUT if you 'need' to have boiler with a sticker that says it's rated for an inspector you will need to buy the SH.
2nd The Stainless Steel pump will last longer PLUS if you have NO Steel (ferrous metal) parts in the system you can use NON BARRIER pipe.
The only reason for barrier pipe is to STOP oxygen from entering the water. Water Oxygen and Steel= RUST so that's a bad thing.
Take out the steel you will have NO problems.
3rdly I got most of the pricing in the post from pexheat.com. No specific reason just a site that comes up with google search.
Hope this helps.
BUY a RA-14 or RA-11
THEN purchase a HIGH LIMIT 120 degree limit switch.
this is the basic difference between the SH and RA models.
BUT if you 'need' to have boiler with a sticker that says it's rated for an inspector you will need to buy the SH.
2nd The Stainless Steel pump will last longer PLUS if you have NO Steel (ferrous metal) parts in the system you can use NON BARRIER pipe.
The only reason for barrier pipe is to STOP oxygen from entering the water. Water Oxygen and Steel= RUST so that's a bad thing.
Take out the steel you will have NO problems.
3rdly I got most of the pricing in the post from pexheat.com. No specific reason just a site that comes up with google search.
Hope this helps.
bobs409
Well-known member
Epoxy guy: I just want to confirm, are you 100% certain there are no differences between the SH or RA series other than the temp switch? I just want to make sure because I'm almost ready to order. I won't need an inspection.
I was told to use an SH-09 for my size garage which I can get for $692 but I found a place that has the RA-09 for $480. Would be a $212.00 savings if your correct on this.
The only thing I could find different in specs is the SH-09 calls for a 50 amp circuit and the RA-09 a 40 amp circuit. I wonder why the difference?
Thanks for any input,
Bob
I was told to use an SH-09 for my size garage which I can get for $692 but I found a place that has the RA-09 for $480. Would be a $212.00 savings if your correct on this.
The only thing I could find different in specs is the SH-09 calls for a 50 amp circuit and the RA-09 a 40 amp circuit. I wonder why the difference?
Thanks for any input,
Bob
'the epoxy floor guy'
Well-known member
"code" is the difference.
There are TINY differences between the two. NONE will effect the performance or reliability of the unit.
The 'tweeks' were required in order to make code officials 'happy' I have many of these seisco units used in floor heat applications. The ONLY modification is swapping out of the hi limit switch.
BOTH RA-9 and SH-9 have TWO 4500 watt elements
4500 watts / 240 Volts = 18.75 amps x 2
My Guess is they combine the elements onto ONE circuit.
ONE 40 amp Breaker or ONE 50 amp Breaker Will work just fine.
I would however be sure to use the gauge of wire recommended by code to handle 40 or 50 amps to make sure you are safe.
You cannot go wrong putting in a 50 amp breaker and wire capable of handling 50 amps.
I did have one unit with a 'weak' breaker that after time if the unit was running continuous for a while would trip the breaker. Breakers are controlled by heat. Continuous amps running through the breakers will heat them up and so trip them. Generally you would NOT use a "hot water heater" continuously for 2-3 hours like in a floor heat application. Doing so you would build up more ambient heat through long term usage. 2x18.75 amps is close to the full 40 amps. You would probably avoid any problems by using a 50 amp.
I have NEVER purchased anything smaller than an RA-14. They require TWO Circuits
7000 W / 240 Volts = 29.2 Amps ONE 30 amp breaker works but I have had problems like I said with 'weak' ones.
PERSONALLY, If it was me I would purchase the RA-14, TWO reasons.
#1 you will have TWO circuits to break down the load. Smaller wire Costs LESS.
#2 With these units you will spend the EXACT SAME amount of money to run an RA-09 running at Max output as to use an RA-28 only running at a fraction of capacity. ZERO difference. The only noticeable change will be how quickly the unit recovers, and how often it runs. If you have a noisy pump you will appreciate the unit recovering as quickly as possible. Plus it would save wear and tear on ALL the parts of the system.
Both units will require the exact same BTU s 3400 btu's per KW. So weather you put them in all at once or over time it costs the same.
AND the price difference is ONLY $50. You MAY save that on wire if you are running it a ways from the breaker panel.
The ONLY reason NOT to would be if you are already maxing out your amp draw for the panel. THEN and only then would I choose the RA-09.
Build in a Safety factor with the RA-14 you will NEVER regret it.
There are TINY differences between the two. NONE will effect the performance or reliability of the unit.
The 'tweeks' were required in order to make code officials 'happy' I have many of these seisco units used in floor heat applications. The ONLY modification is swapping out of the hi limit switch.
BOTH RA-9 and SH-9 have TWO 4500 watt elements
4500 watts / 240 Volts = 18.75 amps x 2
My Guess is they combine the elements onto ONE circuit.
ONE 40 amp Breaker or ONE 50 amp Breaker Will work just fine.
I would however be sure to use the gauge of wire recommended by code to handle 40 or 50 amps to make sure you are safe.
You cannot go wrong putting in a 50 amp breaker and wire capable of handling 50 amps.
I did have one unit with a 'weak' breaker that after time if the unit was running continuous for a while would trip the breaker. Breakers are controlled by heat. Continuous amps running through the breakers will heat them up and so trip them. Generally you would NOT use a "hot water heater" continuously for 2-3 hours like in a floor heat application. Doing so you would build up more ambient heat through long term usage. 2x18.75 amps is close to the full 40 amps. You would probably avoid any problems by using a 50 amp.
I have NEVER purchased anything smaller than an RA-14. They require TWO Circuits
7000 W / 240 Volts = 29.2 Amps ONE 30 amp breaker works but I have had problems like I said with 'weak' ones.
PERSONALLY, If it was me I would purchase the RA-14, TWO reasons.
#1 you will have TWO circuits to break down the load. Smaller wire Costs LESS.
#2 With these units you will spend the EXACT SAME amount of money to run an RA-09 running at Max output as to use an RA-28 only running at a fraction of capacity. ZERO difference. The only noticeable change will be how quickly the unit recovers, and how often it runs. If you have a noisy pump you will appreciate the unit recovering as quickly as possible. Plus it would save wear and tear on ALL the parts of the system.
Both units will require the exact same BTU s 3400 btu's per KW. So weather you put them in all at once or over time it costs the same.
AND the price difference is ONLY $50. You MAY save that on wire if you are running it a ways from the breaker panel.
The ONLY reason NOT to would be if you are already maxing out your amp draw for the panel. THEN and only then would I choose the RA-09.
Build in a Safety factor with the RA-14 you will NEVER regret it.
badgerboiler
Active member
First you perform a heat load analysis to determine the size of the boiler.
Bigger is definitely not better. The more a heating unit operates the more even the heat (like cruise control). Radiant floor heating sytems work best when the thermostat is set and forgotten. If you only need heat on the weekend an infrared would be a better choice. Here again a two-stage would be in order because most of the year you will not be in design conditions and the more it operates the more comfort you will have while actually using less fuel.
Professionals use barrier PEX and CI pumps, steel expansion tanks, etc.
Modulating electric boilers sized to the load will use LESS electricity and be MORE comfortable.
Water heaters are not boilers.
Finally; spend a couple of bucks on a licensed electrician, the life you save may be your own.
Honestly guys, getting design help on HVAC systems from one another is like letting your wife tune up your HEMI.
Bigger is definitely not better. The more a heating unit operates the more even the heat (like cruise control). Radiant floor heating sytems work best when the thermostat is set and forgotten. If you only need heat on the weekend an infrared would be a better choice. Here again a two-stage would be in order because most of the year you will not be in design conditions and the more it operates the more comfort you will have while actually using less fuel.
Professionals use barrier PEX and CI pumps, steel expansion tanks, etc.
Modulating electric boilers sized to the load will use LESS electricity and be MORE comfortable.
Water heaters are not boilers.
Finally; spend a couple of bucks on a licensed electrician, the life you save may be your own.
Honestly guys, getting design help on HVAC systems from one another is like letting your wife tune up your HEMI.
Ron Lombardo
Well-known member
Gents,
I;m a Mechanical Engineer and Contractor. I agree with Badger. Why spend all that money when for a few bucks more ... a contractor sizes it, prices it, pickups up all the materials, installs it and guarantees its performance ..
I will try to post a pic of mine in my garage Braford White wall mounted condensing Boiler ..Modulating ... 24 x24 3 stories ... set at 55 so far the cost has been 100.00 for nov 130.00 dec to heat the place.
Pretty damn good since my house with a Crown gas fired std pilot with mostly baseborad and radiant in basement and bathrooms is 500 per month.
Ron
I;m a Mechanical Engineer and Contractor. I agree with Badger. Why spend all that money when for a few bucks more ... a contractor sizes it, prices it, pickups up all the materials, installs it and guarantees its performance ..
I will try to post a pic of mine in my garage Braford White wall mounted condensing Boiler ..Modulating ... 24 x24 3 stories ... set at 55 so far the cost has been 100.00 for nov 130.00 dec to heat the place.
Pretty damn good since my house with a Crown gas fired std pilot with mostly baseborad and radiant in basement and bathrooms is 500 per month.
Ron
bobs409
Well-known member
I had Siesco determine the boiler size based on my garage specs.
I can't see how hiring/having a professional to install this is only going to cost a few bucks more. If it's anything like other businesses, they'll mark up the parts by 50% and then charge an enormous labor cost.
Since it's just a garage, I think it would be overkill anyway.
As for electrical, I wired the rest of my garage myself so wiring this is nothing.
Thanks,
Bob
I can't see how hiring/having a professional to install this is only going to cost a few bucks more. If it's anything like other businesses, they'll mark up the parts by 50% and then charge an enormous labor cost.
Since it's just a garage, I think it would be overkill anyway.As for electrical, I wired the rest of my garage myself so wiring this is nothing.
Thanks,
Bob
Ron Lombardo
Well-known member
Remember when something is sized incorrectly ... you end up either pissed off because it will not ehat the area designed for and you sepnt a lot of money or the thing is over sized and your wasting fuel and that cost you a lt of money ...this is why we hire professionals ... Oh and if I could get 50% markup on matierals .. I would be rich by now.
Ron
Ron
bobs409
Well-known member
Well Ron, as an example, just visit your local auto repair garage. Next time you have a car repaired, check the cost of what you were charged for the part compared to what it would cost you to go buy it. Then add $40-60 dollars labor on top of that to install it! This is just an example. Could the plumbing/heating specialists be much different? I doubt it.
Bob
must8657
Banned
"when for a few bucks more". i doubt it is only a few bucks more. again, why not just pay the pros to do everything. hvac is not rocket science. with a little research and time, i am sure the average person on this list can figure it out. i am sure the pros can do a faster job and probably even make it look a little nicer. but some of us enjoy / take pride in doing our own work and like to save money. if i paid someone to do my projects i want done, i would have to cut the amount of projects in half to afford it. Plus, there are a lot of pros out there that aren't really pros.
jason
jason
'the epoxy floor guy'
Well-known member
I must agree. I have seen some floors installed by FIRST TIME floor installers, Even some Pics posted HERE that look Beter than some floors I have seen installed by so called "professionals"
My point: Some Professionals AREN'T, and some Do It Yourselfer's do Professional Work.
As with Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC, Etc. As long as the work is installed Per code and in a professional Manner I see NO reason the homeowner SHOULDN'T do his own work.
Just because you replace your own brakes on your car Doesn't mean they will fail and you will drive off a cliff!?!?
That being said, I think we ALL know someone who 'tries' Home Improvement projects that should NEVER be allowed to buy building materials!!
My point: Some Professionals AREN'T, and some Do It Yourselfer's do Professional Work.
As with Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC, Etc. As long as the work is installed Per code and in a professional Manner I see NO reason the homeowner SHOULDN'T do his own work.
Just because you replace your own brakes on your car Doesn't mean they will fail and you will drive off a cliff!?!?
That being said, I think we ALL know someone who 'tries' Home Improvement projects that should NEVER be allowed to buy building materials!!
Ron Lombardo
Well-known member
Gents,
My company only does Commerical / Industrial Installations. Most of our work is plans and specs. So we are held to a higher std. Theres a lot of inspections \ cerifications of the work we do. These systems last 10 times longer then a Resdiential Installation because the correct materials are used, the installation means and methods are correct.
We also have our own Mechanic to fix our trucks. Why ... not because of the cost .. because as someone said " they are not all pros" I dont mind paying when the job gets done properly.
So in both cases its not cost ...its the correct installation .. from the man installing it to the correct materials to being correctly engineered.
I;m not a Rich Man and I;m on this board because I like doing it myself also ... I do carpentry, Electrical work, concrete work, steel work, etc in my own home...but i do it because every time I hire some one they F#$% it up.
As I stated before ... I'm in the Heating and AC section of this board .. I;m a Mechanical Engineer ... if you guys want to bounce some thing off me ...or want a good recommendation from or some thing sized up properly ... with material lists and WHOLESALE prices from TRACPIPE, UPONOR ( PEX ), and boiler ...let me know I will try to help you out ....
Nothing makes me want to vomit more then seeing a poorly installed system and knowing hard earned money was wasted.
Ron
My company only does Commerical / Industrial Installations. Most of our work is plans and specs. So we are held to a higher std. Theres a lot of inspections \ cerifications of the work we do. These systems last 10 times longer then a Resdiential Installation because the correct materials are used, the installation means and methods are correct.
We also have our own Mechanic to fix our trucks. Why ... not because of the cost .. because as someone said " they are not all pros" I dont mind paying when the job gets done properly.
So in both cases its not cost ...its the correct installation .. from the man installing it to the correct materials to being correctly engineered.
I;m not a Rich Man and I;m on this board because I like doing it myself also ... I do carpentry, Electrical work, concrete work, steel work, etc in my own home...but i do it because every time I hire some one they F#$% it up.
As I stated before ... I'm in the Heating and AC section of this board .. I;m a Mechanical Engineer ... if you guys want to bounce some thing off me ...or want a good recommendation from or some thing sized up properly ... with material lists and WHOLESALE prices from TRACPIPE, UPONOR ( PEX ), and boiler ...let me know I will try to help you out ....
Nothing makes me want to vomit more then seeing a poorly installed system and knowing hard earned money was wasted.
Ron
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