Rafter Roofing Help

[Bad4Bizness84]

Need help with roof framing!!!
Hello from Missouri! First off thank you for taking the time to help out a fellow DIYer! I'm going to include lots of details so bare with me. I'm wanting to build a 24x30 garage/shop with 30 being the length. It will be 2x4 walls 16" oc 104" tall with a double top and bottom plate. It will have 1 16x8 garage door and 1 walk in door. I'm planning to use the rib metal panels for siding and roofing. Ok, my problem is how do I make a 2x boards 30 ft long for a ridge board and still make it strong?? Also I will mention I priced trusses and they are $800 to do the whole thing, but I figured what I needed to just do rafters and it would be $300 so I won't be using trusses! I don't know if it matters but each rafter would be 12'6" and the pitch will be 3/12. Any info would help... Thx!

 

[kbs2244]

You are not going to find 30 foot long 2 x.
That is why they make trusses.
If you local inspector will allow it, you can build your own trusses.

 

[Falcon67]

Your joists on the 24 width will be 2x12 probably doug fir for that span. The ridge beam can be spliced - it does not carry any great load - your ceiling joists keep the walls from falling out, not the rafters or ridge. You splice the ridge with Simpson steel splicing plates.

First 8' ridge section in place:

 

[pattenp]

Use a couple of lengths for the ridge board. The **** joints on the ridge board need to fall where apposing rafters lands. The ridge board is nonstructural when used with rafter ties or ceiling joist. If ridge board is to serve as support without rafter ties then a microbeam needs to be used as a ridge beam.

 

[j p smith]

Wow, I would have thought the trusses would have been less. When you figure the needed wood, 2x12x24 for the joists, and minium 2x6x12'6" for the rafters and 2x6 for the rafters plus the collar ties. Jeff

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

Wow, very helpful replies! Thanks a lot. I was trying to picture one long continuous board, and didn't even think about just using 2 15 ft lengths instead. This may be dumb, but, I'm guessing you would run 2 vertical braces up from the joist to hold the two ends where they **** together to hold them in place while you nail in the rafters?

 

[NUTTSGT]

Wow, I would have thought the trusses would have been less. When you figure the needed wood, 2x12x24 for the joists, and minium 2x6x12'6" for the rafters and 2x6 for the rafters plus the collar ties. Jeff

I was wondering that myself Jeff. Depending on the snow load, some pole bldgs around here have trusses 48" O.C. I'm not sure if the OP can do that or not. I guess it would depend on whether or not he was using purlins or sheathing under the metal and what local code says.

 

[Falcon67]

Wow, I would have thought the trusses would have been less. When you figure the needed wood, 2x12x24 for the joists, and minium 2x6x12'6" for the rafters and 2x6 for the rafters plus the collar ties. Jeff

Mine were hand hand on site, I came out under $40/rafter. IMHO, up to about 24' span you can usually beat truss prices with stick lumber if you don't mind the extra work involved. The 2x12x24'ers ran $25/ea. and they were in stock locally. I wanted 2x10s but no one stocks 2x10s in that length around here.

 

[pattenp]

Exactly. See the vertical 2X4 on the left end in the picture in post #3.

Wow, very helpful replies! Thanks a lot. I was trying to picture one long continuous board, and didn't even think about just using 2 15 ft lengths instead. This may be dumb, but, I'm guessing you would run 2 vertical braces up from the joist to hold the two ends where they **** together to hold them in place while you nail in the rafters?

 

[bczygan]

Wow, very helpful replies! Thanks a lot. I was trying to picture one long continuous board, and didn't even think about just using 2 15 ft lengths instead. This may be dumb, but, I'm guessing you would run 2 vertical braces up from the joist to hold the two ends where they **** together to hold them in place while you nail in the rafters?

Ridge is a board, not a beam. Supports nothing.
Joists must be full length, no splices. Consider engineered lumber.
Use rafter ties.

 

[pattenp]

Not trying to nit pick, but a ridge can just be a board or it can be a structural support. There are ridge boards and then there are ridge beams.

Ridge is a board, not a beam. Supports nothing.
Joists must be full length, no splices. Consider engineered lumber.
Use rafter ties.

 

[Sureshot]

I was wondering that myself Jeff. Depending on the snow load, some pole bldgs around here have trusses 48" O.C. I'm not sure if the OP can do that or not. I guess it would depend on whether or not he was using purlins or sheathing under the metal and what local code says.

My trusses are 6' apart. 42' wide. I was told they just build then beefier to match the spacing.

 

[j p smith]

Guys if he is going with 3/12 for his roof pitch, isn't that on the flat side for snow load?

 

[6768rogues]

If your roof rafters are placed directly above the wall studs, you only need a single top plate. If they do not fall directly over the studs, you need the double plate.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can get 30' long 2x12. It will just be special order. Compare it to the cost of a glu-lam.

Okay experts, would building codes allow you to take 3 1x12x10' and glue them with construction adhesive to 3 more 1x12x10' with the joints offset by 5 feet ?

 

[Sureshot]

Guys if he is going with 3/12 for his roof pitch, isn't that on the flat side for snow load?

Not if done with that in mind. I had a 26x26 that way and my current 24x24 pole addition is that way with 6' between trusses.

 

[j p smith]

Thanks Sureshot.

 

[bad12jr]

If you can go with a 4/12 pitch that might help the price. I just bought trusses at a local lumber yard 24' for $44 a piece.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[spotco2]

That's cheap. I just got a price here for the same trusses and they were almost $100 each.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

Hey guys great discussion, lots of helpfull info. I'm going with a 3/12 pitch because we don't seem to get more than a few inches of snow sometimes no snow at all, and honestly I'm ashamed to say I'm scared of heights!!! So I figure keep the pitch shallow and take up a couple sheets of plywood to lay on the joists to walk on and it won't be so bad. I know you'll all say have someone do it, but I love doing everything myself. As far as inspectors and whatnot, that doesn't apply to me. I live in the country just outside city limits so no rules for me. I do still want it to be safe and sound, not looking to cut too many corners. I'm asking around for someone to give me an estimate on concrete work now. I should be able to get it done pretty cheap in my area. Anyone know how much per yard is a good estimate for gravel work and a 24x30x4 slab with labor would be? Ok, everyone yell at me for not doing footers! I'm trying to stay on the cheap side. I have every detail figured basically, may tweak a few things, and the whole building with $2k allotted for the concrete work comes in at under $5k completely finished minus electrical. Not bad for a 24x30 I don't think!

 

[IHI]

Hey guys great discussion, lots of helpfull info. I'm going with a 3/12 pitch because we don't seem to get more than a few inches of snow sometimes no snow at all, and honestly I'm ashamed to say I'm scared of heights!!! So I figure keep the pitch shallow and take up a couple sheets of plywood to lay on the joists to walk on and it won't be so bad. I know you'll all say have someone do it, but I love doing everything myself. As far as inspectors and whatnot, that doesn't apply to me. I live in the country just outside city limits so no rules for me. I do still want it to be safe and sound, not looking to cut too many corners. I'm asking around for someone to give me an estimate on concrete work now. I should be able to get it done pretty cheap in my area. Anyone know how much per yard is a good estimate for gravel work and a 24x30x4 slab with labor would be? Ok, everyone yell at me for not doing footers! I'm trying to stay on the cheap side. I have every detail figured basically, may tweak a few things, and the whole building with $2k allotted for the concrete work comes in at under $5k completely finished minus electrical. Not bad for a 24x30 I don't think!

At least pour rat footings arou d perimeter with some rerod to strengthen the load bearings areas. I'd make the outside edge of the slab at least..at least 12" wide x 12" deep and then you can morph the rat footings upto your 4" slab depth. I'd run at least 2 rows of 1/2" rebar thru the rat footings as well to help longevity

 

[wrenchguy]

Not trying to nit pick, but a ridge can just be a board or it can be a structural support. There are ridge boards and then there are ridge beams.

Right, A ridge beam is normal used when joist aren't used, ie. cathedral ceiling. a ridge board can be 1x because normally used for ease of layout and assembly. i seen older houses built in the teens and 20's that didn't use a ridge anything, plumb cut to plumb cut, then sheeted with 1x's.

 

[JoeFin]

Here are some Free Truss Designs I looked at on the net. Depending on your local building inspector and codes you may be able to use these and save yourself even more by building your own trusses on site.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mwps_dis/mwps_web/plans/truss_24.pdf

In my local jurisdiction only a State Certified Structural Engineer can submit a Truss Design and even then he must abide by local Dead Load and Live Load requirements and show all calculations along with the design. But then again this is Calif.

 

[Highbeam]

My pole barn truss spacing is 12'. You just need better trusses.

 

[DekeT]

Extend your first ridge board past the first set of rafters half the distance to the next pair of rafters. Your ridge joint will be between rafter points. Attach first set of rafters. **** your next ridge board at the end of the first when you are ready for the next set of rafters. Nail a 2x on each side of the joint of the butted ridge boards. This will give you a solid connection and keep work going quickly.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... honestly I'm ashamed to say I'm scared of heights!!!

Then spend a couple of hundred on a proper safety harness and rope and learn how to proper use them with a proper deadman.

 

[bczygan]

Hey guys great discussion, lots of helpfull info. I'm going with a 3/12 pitch because we don't seem to get more than a few inches of snow sometimes no snow at all, and honestly I'm ashamed to say I'm scared of heights!!! So I figure keep the pitch shallow and take up a couple sheets of plywood to lay on the joists to walk on and it won't be so bad. I know you'll all say have someone do it, but I love doing everything myself. As far as inspectors and whatnot, that doesn't apply to me. I live in the country just outside city limits so no rules for me. I do still want it to be safe and sound, not looking to cut too many corners. I'm asking around for someone to give me an estimate on concrete work now. I should be able to get it done pretty cheap in my area. Anyone know how much per yard is a good estimate for gravel work and a 24x30x4 slab with labor would be? Ok, everyone yell at me for not doing footers! I'm trying to stay on the cheap side. I have every detail figured basically, may tweak a few things, and the whole building with $2k allotted for the concrete work comes in at under $5k completely finished minus electrical. Not bad for a 24x30 I don't think!

Me too!!!

The best way to get rid of this is to go to all the high places you can find. You WILL acclimate.
Don't use less than 4/12 pitch. Shingles are more prone to leak and ice dams are more likely. Shingle warranty may not apply.
Get some adjustable roof jacks and use 2x's for walking boards.
Use scaffolding and work from that to begin with and then get up on the roof and work sitting on your **** if necessary.

All my sheds are 12/12 pitch! You can do it!

 

[Sureshot]

Then spend a couple of hundred on a proper safety harness and rope and learn how to proper use them with a proper deadman.

Lend him your Superman cape.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

I love all this feedback, and all the different ideas! As far as footings go, wouldn't that add a substantial amount to the cost? I have seen some of the hillbillies around here build the crappiest buildings, but they last for decades. So, I am completely unwilling to go over my $5k budget. So, I'm planning to have gravel laid on top of the ground and compacted then a 4" slab poured right on top of that then up with the framing finished with rib metal sheets on purlins no sheathing. Doesn't need to meet any codes just as long as its still standing in 20 yrs ill be happy.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

Here is a visual aid in what I'm thinking... Let me know if anyone sees any problems I may have with this layout.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

Shoot, it turned sideways!

 

[kbs2244]

I want to apologize to all.
When I first read the post I didn’t catch that the 30 feet was the ridge length.

Falcon has it down pat.

 

[IHI]

I love all this feedback, and all the different ideas! As far as footings go, wouldn't that add a substantial amount to the cost? I have seen some of the hillbillies around here build the crappiest buildings, but they last for decades. So, I am completely unwilling to go over my $5k budget. So, I'm planning to have gravel laid on top of the ground and compacted then a 4" slab poured right on top of that then up with the framing finished with rib metal sheets on purlins no sheathing. Doesn't need to meet any codes just as long as its still standing in 20 yrs ill be happy.

Good
Fast
Cheap

Pick two and you cannot attain the third no matter how hard you try.

No offense but your mentality is why america is so screwed up...want everything as cheap as possible for the day with no concern to quality or longevity..the brainwashing that cheap and throw away have settled deep in you; and sadly that accounts for most americans.

Ill just leave you with this thought, no matter the structure, everything startz with a strong foundation...build on a week foundation and all you have wasted your time and money on is a house of cards. Your whining over a couple hundred bucks now on THE most detrimental part of any build....ask yourself, when will the maddness end as this will bleed over into each thing you do.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

I think you're reading me wrong. See, I live in rural southern Missouri, I see farmers building entire barns out of half broken pallets, and any other scrap they can find. I'm not a spoiled baby that wants a mansion today for $3... I simply am looking to avoid some of the unnecessary **** people try to tell you you have to do. There's a reason why houses they build nowadays in subdivisions are all screwed up and thrown together and houses that were built in 1920 are standing strong. They didn't have to have trusses or footings, they hauled rocks from the creek to use as a foundation. I just want a decent garage built to a lasting standard without having to consult an engineer or spend $20k for the same size building! Sure the $20k building will be pretty and insulated, but in 20 years if the structure is still standing I'm ok with a sag here or a crack there... I can still use my table saw, or welder or build a hot rod just like the other guy... Cracks and sags don't affect usability. And if in 20 yrs it falls down ill build another and still be $10k ahead! I'm not cheap and/or lazy I just want things simple like they used to be. I'm not even using an air nailer every nail will be hammered. I don't really even like the idea of using things like joist hangars, but they're cheap so I will. My grandpa didn't use joist hangars in 1940 when he built his house, which still is lived in today. So my point is expensive doesn't always equal quality. If Thomas Jefferson didn't need footings to build mount Vernon mansion, I thing my 24x30 garage will be ok too.

 

[jimkaniki]

Right, A ridge beam is normal used when joist aren't used, ie. cathedral ceiling. a ridge board can be 1x because normally used for ease of layout and assembly. i seen older houses built in the teens and 20's that didn't use a ridge anything, plumb cut to plumb cut, then sheeted with 1x's.

Right. I built a 20x30 run-in shed for horses with no ridge board at all. I built a second shed almost identical to the first. I used a ridge board on the second one because it made for a neater job. The board has no structural purpose at all.

A ridge beam is a different animal all together. It needs to be sufficient to span the entire length of the building while supporting half of the roof load (assuming a symmetrical building) and be supported by columns or other structures to carry the load down to proper footers.

 

[Bad4Bizness84]

I had another question... Ok so I will have 2x4 wall framing flush with the edges of the concrete, then purlins running horizontally at 24" oc.. So when I put the ribbed sheet metal on wont there be a 1" gap between the concrete or wall and the metal? I imagine rain hitting the ground and splashing up between the metal and wall.

 

[volaredon]

use an LVL.

 

[IHI]

I think you're reading me wrong. See, I live in rural southern Missouri, I see farmers building entire barns out of half broken pallets, and any other scrap they can find.

We have those farms here too, and many of the buildings are jolpitated/falling down and apart, a hazard to be in...just because you see it doesn't mean it's right

I'm not a spoiled baby that wants a mansion today for $3... I simply am looking to avoid some of the unnecessary **** people try to tell you you have to do. There's a reason why houses they build nowadays in subdivisions are all screwed up and thrown together and houses that were built in 1920 are standing strong. They didn't have to have trusses or footings, they hauled rocks from the creek to use as a foundation.
I'm going to stop you right there for the simple fact I played a GC for 2 decades, mainly residential remodeling with light commercial work. These "awesome" homes built from stones by the creek, yeah..we've worked on/in them..guess what, they take ALOT of maintenance over the yrs to constantly mend settling issues, rock walls bowing in, gaps so large you can stick your arm in them...meanwhile that rock solid base you think they're made of causes doors to bind, floors to sag, windows not to open, floor joists to crack/break. Your seeing this at face value, I seen this **** everyday and was the guy fixing it...there is a reason we don't use that method anymore, there is a reason we have building codes and methods we must adhere to

I just want a decent garage built to a lasting standard without having to consult an engineer or spend $20k for the same size building! Sure the $20k building will be pretty and insulated, but in 20 years if the structure is still standing I'm ok with a sag here or a crack there... I can still use my table saw, or welder or build a hot rod just like the other guy... Cracks and sags don't affect usability. And if in 20 yrs it falls down ill build another and still be $10k ahead! I'm not cheap and/or lazy I just want things simple like they used to be. I'm not even using an air nailer every nail will be hammered. I don't really even like the idea of using things like joist hangars, but they're cheap so I will. My grandpa didn't use joist hangars in 1940 when he built his house, which still is lived in today. So my point is expensive doesn't always equal quality. If Thomas Jefferson didn't need footings to build mount Vernon mansion, I thing my 24x30 garage will be ok too.

Like I said, your the typical brainwashed American and typical of the customers all us professional, not the hack you wanna hire with a pick-up and a hammer because he'll do your job for a 12 pack and a $100, are faced with dealing with initially. I know nothing I say will change your mind, you have it all figured out already...I'm hoping by exposing how ridiculous your thought train is it will make maybe one other person borderline goofy, smack his forehead and be like duh, I wanna be fragile, but will now see where to spend the money and where to cut back..."your grandpa's house"...guess what, it's all these older homes that much has been learned and why new codes/methods are implemented....guess what, even today using stick framed roof's, we STILL HAVE TO USE JOIST HANGERS and hurricane ties, why...stronger/safer...weird how that works, what does stronger and safer=longevity....ask me about your grandpa's era houses that the rafters are cracked/broken, ask me about your grandpa's era homes that have additional braces scabbed in because they are failing and roof is sagging. Ask me about your grandpa's era foundations that are shifting/cracked and causing moldy/musty basements, or how great his old single pane wood windows are, etc...

Heck, why not wire your shop up with some knob and tube, might be able to craiglist that pretty cheap and find some old speaker wire in dumpster to run for your outlets.


Plainly put, the foundation is THE most important part of the build, the foundation is the most important part of anything in life, it's a stable base upon which you build...****** base, your building a house of cards like I said because it's already on borrowed time. We're talking a few hundred bucks for a few more yrds of concrete to even do a halfassed rat footing with steel in it, and your crying about that and trying to compare it to the old crumbling structures that require tons of upkeep from the 1800's to keep it standing so you can look at it today and use it as an example?? LMFAO. wake up and come out and play in the real world, it's a whole lot different than looking at things from your car doing 55mph down the road, real life blows holes in everything you've tried to say, I know...I lived repairing it for 25yrs

 

[CTyankee]

Like I said, your the typical brainwashed American and typical of the customers all us professional, not the hack you wanna hire with a pick-up and a hammer because he'll do your job for a 12 pack and a $100, are faced with dealing with initially. I know nothing I say will change your mind, you have it all figured out already...I'm hoping by exposing how ridiculous your thought train is it will make maybe one other person borderline goofy, smack his forehead and be like duh, I wanna be fragile, but will now see where to spend the money and where to cut back..."your grandpa's house"...guess what, it's all these older homes that much has been learned and why new codes/methods are implemented....guess what, even today using stick framed roof's, we STILL HAVE TO USE JOIST HANGERS and hurricane ties, why...stronger/safer...weird how that works, what does stronger and safer=longevity....ask me about your grandpa's era houses that the rafters are cracked/broken, ask me about your grandpa's era homes that have additional braces scabbed in because they are failing and roof is sagging. Ask me about your grandpa's era foundations that are shifting/cracked and causing moldy/musty basements, or how great his old single pane wood windows are, etc...

Heck, why not wire your shop up with some knob and tube, might be able to craiglist that pretty cheap and find some old speaker wire in dumpster to run for your outlets.


Plainly put, the foundation is THE most important part of the build, the foundation is the most important part of anything in life, it's a stable base upon which you build...****** base, your building a house of cards like I said because it's already on borrowed time. We're talking a few hundred bucks for a few more yrds of concrete to even do a halfassed rat footing with steel in it, and your crying about that and trying to compare it to the old crumbling structures that require tons of upkeep from the 1800's to keep it standing so you can look at it today and use it as an example?? LMFAO. wake up and come out and play in the real world, it's a whole lot different than looking at things from your car doing 55mph down the road, real life blows holes in everything you've tried to say, I know...I lived repairing it for 25yrs

Well that sure saved me a lot of typing....

 

[IHI]

Well that sure saved me a lot of typing....

I'm restrainted since I know internet is required short and sweet responses or else attention is lost and people get extremely **** hurt when you point out reality, when they want to live in their HGTV world.

Just like the neighbor next door had his place reroofed by an amish crew the past few days and told me, boy..those guys work fast. I told him they should since you didn't get a permit and they don't pay taxes since they fall under some religion bullshiit that makes them exempt (crews like that I had to bid against)..funniest part is neighbor is a ******** bible beater LOL. I then asked him if they already addressed the venting issues in the attic, "what do you mean"...I mean all these homes were built in the late 70's/early 80's when it was common practice to close off the attic an try to prevent any air from outside getting in, and we learned over time that this is why shingles fail because they cook from the bottom side up. I see they installed a ridge vent, but what did the crew do to flush out the old moist hot attic air to bring in fresh air?

"I dunno, they never said anything"

I smiled and said exactly, and because customers want rock bottom pricing, they do half the job and leave you on the hook 10yrs from now with curling/flaking shingles and forced to reroof again, so ya might wanna crawl up there and make sure you pull out all the insulation stuff between the top plate and the roof deck to get some air flow moving so that new ridge vent of your actually works the way it was designed to work.

Needless to say we didn't sell many roofs since I only sold complete systems, people don't want that, they want cheap even when it means they're going to redo it again down the road...it's just better for now, and we'll deal with the problems later...and end up spending twice as much then they would've doing it right once, the first time...but they're so blinded by initial cost they cant see the big picture...hence my saying "the only people that can afford to be cheap are rich people, because they can afford to do it again"

It's like anything in life a person who is good at their job and knows what's going on, they know the correct way to do things and understand a little more upfront saves ALOT on the backside (my wife hates me because I wont do/buy anything unless it's right-"your black and white") she tells me. no, I just don't like ******* my hard earned money away trying to be a chince because then I waste more time and more money redoing/replacing the cheap fix later. Kinda why I'm obsessed with doing anything home related right..it's THE biggest investment most American's ever pay for, and yet they're happy to poorly maintain it...just don't make sense to me.